When Chevrolet's Titan 90 ran like a Deere

[kscarbel2]

Had a wonderful conversation over lunch this week with a former Chevrolet heavy truck distributor who recalled when General Motors decided to offer the Chevrolet Titan 90 (and I assume the GMC Astro) with John Deere power.

The former dealer principal ordered one unit for himself, and a second unit for the local John Deere dealer who was a friend.

The trucks were received and the two buyers were thrilled with their new trucks and "green" powerplants.

However, after a short time, General Motors contacted the dealer owner and explained that the plan to offer Deere power had been cancelled, and as a result they had to return the two trucks.....which they reluctantly did.

Has anyone else in the BMT universe heard about this moment in American truck history ?

[Maxidyne]

Wouldn't surprise me- GM and Deere were quite close in the 80s with Deere involved in the manufacture of the 4 cylinder "Iron Duke" engine for GM. Deere also built trucks for a while, a stripped chassis that was the foundation for step vans for Continental Baking and motorhomes.

[tenfive0]

I had know idea John Deere had any involvement with GM and the Iron Duke. That might explain why they were such a great little engine.

[1965]

Never heard of the iron duke

[tjc transport]

iron duke was a 4 cylinder iron block from the late 70's early 80's for pontiac.

sorta like the chevy 153 used in the chevy II/nova in the 60's

[kscarbel2]

The 151 cubic inch (2.5-litre) in-line four cylinder Pontiac "Iron Duke" was also the standard engine in the Jeep CJ5, CJ-7 and CJ-8 for four years over the 1980-83 period.

[Rob]

12 minutes ago, kscarbel2 said:

The 151 cubic inch (2.5-litre) in-line four cylinder Pontiac "Iron Duke" was also the standard engine in the Jeep CJ5, CJ-7 and CJ-8 for four years over the 1980-83 period.

Yup. AMC was in dire straits during that timeframe till the Chrysler Corporation bought them up replacing the GM engine with the 4.0ltr "Jeep" engine. Funny thing about that engine was that it was a basic modification to the original 232 AMC engine from about 1963 with a different head and induction system through the years.

[j hancock]

A couple short articles to crunch.

https://magazines.marinelink.com/Magazines/MaritimeReporter/198609/content/detroit-venture-broader-201841

https://greenmagazine.com/detroit-deere-corporation/

 

[Maddog13407]

iron duke was in every postal delivery truck in the country In the 80's. also in most smaller puddle. jumper Chevy Celebrities and Pontiacs and OLdsmobiles. least with the Mail Jeeps the put the engine in the right way!

[Maxidyne]

Also used in the Postal Jeep's successor, the LLV. until it was replaced by the 2.2.

[Hayseed]

Back in the '80s the largest Articulated John Deere Tractor had a V8 Motor. I have a Funny Feeling the block was cast by GM. or there was some Non John Deere source for It...

[Phase 1]

10 hours ago, kscarbel2 said:

Had a wonderful conversation over lunch this week with a former Chevrolet heavy truck distributor who recalled when General Motors decided to offer the Chevrolet Titan 90 (and I assume the GMC Astro) with John Deere power.

The former dealer principal ordered one unit for himself, and a second unit for the local John Deere dealer who was a friend.

The trucks were received and the two buyers were thrilled with their new trucks and "green" powerplants.

However, after a short time, General Motors contacted the dealer owner and explained that the plan to offer Deere power had been cancelled, and as a result they had to return the two trucks.....which they reluctantly did.

Has anyone else in the BMT universe heard about this moment in American truck history ?

It has been discussed in truck forums before. There are supposed to be some Chevrolet parts manuals in existence that were printed for trucks with the John Deere engine. The word was that Caterpillar did not want the competition of Deere engines and worked to end the deal. I had thought it was an engine for trucks that were smaller than the Titan 90, and would have been those that used a 3208 Cat,

[davehummell]

I had a massey harris 22 the engine was shot so I put the iron duke and a 3 speed in the tractor that engine ran real good had a woodward govener on it. When I was young my cousin had a chevy 2 stationwagon with that engine she run the crap out of that car. didn't they use a head of a 283?

[tenfive0]

I had a 1937 Chevy two (2) door Sedan that had a 283 in it that was taken out of a bulldozer. Pretty sure a 283 engine was not original or stock in the bulldozer. I'm guessing a previous owner retro fitted the engine in the Dozer. Another die hard engine Chevy (GM) 283 Small Block. I can not say with 100% certainty but most if not all 283's were factory equipped with Power Pack Heads. Can't say at all what head was fitted to or on the Iron Duke.

Edited June 30, 2019 by tenfive0

[tjc transport]

9 hours ago, Maddog13407 said:

iron duke was in every postal delivery truck in the country In the 80's. 

not the iron duke, that was the chevy 153 4 cylinder. it was replaced with the AMC 4.o six cylinder starting in the early 70's when AMC took over jeep brand. 

1 hour ago, davehummell said:

I had a massey harris 22 the engine was shot so I put the iron duke and a 3 speed in the tractor that engine ran real good had a woodward govener on it. When I was young my cousin had a chevy 2 stationwagon with that engine she run the crap out of that car. didn't they use a head of a 283?

same with your cousins chevy II, it had a chevy 153 4 cylinder, not an "iron duke"

[kscarbel2]

11 hours ago, j hancock said:

A couple short articles to crunch.

https://magazines.marinelink.com/Magazines/MaritimeReporter/198609/content/detroit-venture-broader-201841

https://greenmagazine.com/detroit-deere-corporation/

Mr. Hancock pegged it.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

July 21, 1986

General Motors and Deere & Company have signed a memorandum of understanding to form a joint venture to design, manufacture and distribute diesel engines worldwide, the companies announced recently. The proposed corporation would be held equally by both parent companies. The agreement is subject to final negotiations and clearance by the federal antitrust authorities.

The joint venture will include the diesel engine operations of Deere & Company and the Detroit Diesel Allison Division of General Motors (DDA).

F. James McDonald, president of General Motors, and Robert A. Hanson, chairman and chief executive officer, Deere & Company, issued this joint statement: "General Motors and Deere & Company believe this proposed joint venture is a very positive step for the diesel engine operations of both companies.

The new organization will allow us to provide a full line of products that will benefit from combined resources in both technology and economies of scale in manufacturing.

These advantages, coupled with a strong distribution network and the considerable experience of management and production personnel from both companies, give us confidence that the new company will play a leadership role in the diesel industry." Officials predict annual sales of about $1.5 billion for the new company.

The new company is yet to be named and will be headquartered in the Detroit area. Senior management will be drawn from both GM and Deere. It is expected that the new firm will be in operation under its new name and management by January 1,1987.

The joint venture will utilize diesel engine facilities in the Detroit area presently operated by Detroit Diesel Allison Division of General Motors. These include the Redford heavy-duty diesel engine plant, the Romulus Parts Distribution Center and the Romulus Engineering Center.

Also included will be the tools and machinery used to manufacture the Detroit Diesel 8.2L medium-duty engines now being built by GM's Chevrolet-Pontiac-GM of Canada (CPC) group which recently acquired DDA's Romulus diesel engine manufacturing facility. The 8.2L engine will be a part of the new joint venture's line.

The Deere & Company facilities to be utilized include the Waterloo, Iowa, diesel engine plant and a diesel engine plant in Saran, France.

Engines will also be provided from the Dubuque, Iowa, factory, which will continue to be part of Deere & Company. These three facilities supply engines for John Deere agricultural and industrial equipment as well as for use by other customers in marine and industrial applications and generator sets.

All other DDA operations will remain with GM, and other operations of Deere & Company will be unaffected.

The combined product line gives the new company a complete range of diesel engines from 50 hp to 2,000 hp, with a wide variety of configurations to meet virtually every application need.

Detroit Diesel Allison has been marketing the John Deere line of diesel engines through its worldwide sales organization for the past year, under an earlier agreement. The two companies also have been cooperating under a technical agreement for joint engineering efforts on new products. These actions have provided continuity and direction while the joint venture has been under study.

[Bullheaded]

John Deere played a big part in the design of the Series 60.

[kscarbel2]

1 hour ago, Bullheaded said:

John Deere played a big part in the design of the Series 60.

Well now I didn’t know that. Very interesting.

[Truck Shop]

It was only the Series 50 that Deere was involved in and even at that Deere was only contracted to cast the cylinder heads. Which was not designed by Deere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Diesel_Series_50

[Bullheaded]

There seems to be many versions of this story, but I have read many articles back in the day in a few trucking trade magazines that John Deere had a part in the development of the 60 Series.

And this discussion on the ATHS web site.

 

G.M. was concerned about Detroit Diesel's loss of market share in the early 80's. The 2 cycle's day had pretty much passed for highway truck service. Deere was making noises about entering the truck diesel field. So, Detroit and Deere cooperated on a new 4 cycle diesel, the 60 Series. The 60 was going to be manufactured and sold for truck use by Detroit Diesel, and for construction/agriculture/industrial use by Deere. Supposedly, early 60's had Deere casting numbers on them. G.M. starts testing the 60 in '84, and in '86 offered the 60 in GMC Generals and Brigadiers. At this point, though the 60 Series was showing a lot of promise, GM wanted to sell Detroit Diesel. The plan supposedly was the Detroit was going to be merged with Deere, and Deere was also going to supply existing Deere diesels for GM medium duty trucks. I believe a few were built with Deere diesels in the late 80's (I saw parts listed for Deere powered mediums in GM parts calatlogs at the time). Also, the new 1990 Topkick and Kodiak trucks were designed to take Deere engines. Something happened. Maybe because GM decided to merge their class 8 truck line with Volvo-White, maybe because they got a great offer from Penske, who knows. But, Detroit went to Penske, the 1990 Topkick and Kodiak went with Caterpillar (and they got their own exclusive diesel, the 3116), and the class 8's went to Volvo.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Bullheaded

[RoadwayR]

I may have wrote that for the ATHS years ago.  That is the story I heard.  The Chevy Titan 90 was a clone of the Astro 96, and it's last year was 1980.  The GM trucks that had I heard had the Deere engines were 1986 (or so) C-60/6000 medium duties, the engine used was a Deere 5.9L.  Some did make it out into the real world, and they were in the parts books.  Someone told me they were first offered to Deere dealers.  No idea if they were all recalled, but that sounds plausible.  GM probably would not have wanted to support 'orphan' trucks.

Later on, a CNG converted Deere 5.9L was shopped around, and I think one of the school bus manufacturers offered it for a few years.  The company I work for had one in a Freightliner FL60, ran very good.  No idea how it got in there, but I don't think it made it into regular production.  I never saw another.   

  

Edited July 1, 2019 by RoadwayR

[kscarbel2]

"In the early 1980s Detroit Diesel, then still a division of General Motors had a 3.2 % market share and was hemorrhaging money. The two stroke engines they were then building which were technologically similar to the engines Deere used in the 435 and 8020 tractors were unlikely to ever meet the new emissions standards that were coming.

So Detroit Diesel approached John Deere who was having its own struggles due to the 1980s farm economy, about merging engine building operations. Plans and negotiations soon began.

4000 to 5000 GM workers would be assigned to the new company along with another 2000 from Deere.

Company headquarters would be in Detroit and the Redford Township engine plant and Romulus parts distribution and engineering center would also be used.

All of the other Detroit Diesel operations such as those building engines and Allison transmissions for light trucks as well as locomotive engine operations would not be affected.

Deere plants affected would be the engine facilities in Waterloo, Dubuque and Saran, France.

Things progressed to enough of a degree that in March of 1987, a few brochures and ads were printed that included the new company’s name, Detroit Deere Corporation.

However being a deal was finalized, Roger Penske who a few years earlier had purchased Hertz Truck Leasing and was Detroit Diesel’s largest customer sent a team who along with GM’s John Farmer put together a 700 million dollar deal in a matter of weeks with General Motors holding 20% of the note for 10 to 15 years.

The Romulus site was sold off and Allison Transmission was kept by GM, at least for awhile.

Penske’s group also hammered out a new contract with the UAW that markedly decreased absenteeism and grievances.

The new Detroit Diesel then went full speed ahead with production of the Tech 80 engine developed by Arn Vanderbock. That engine was later named the 60 series and market share soon climbed from 3% to 35%."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Detroit series 60 was developed by Mr. Arn Vanderbock who was an engineer at Cummins.
He proposed it to Cummins. They declined. He came over to Detroit Diesel.

https://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=685481&DisplayType=flat&setCookie=1

[kscarbel2]

Detroit chips in with an overhead camshaft six

Commercial Motor  /  March 14, 1987

Over the past decade Detroit Diesel Allison — General Motors' diesel engine and automatic transmission-manufacturing subsidiary — has seen its share of the North American Class Eight (top weight on-road truck category) engine market dwindle away almost to nothing. Of the 130,000 or so Class Eight vehicles which were sold in North America last year, only 5% had Detroit Diesel engines. Once DDA would have been disappointed if its market share had dropped below 30%.

DDA's vee-eight and vee-six twostroke engines never found favour with European operators, mainly because of their poor fuel consumption. Now they have suffered a dramatic decline in popularity among American operators too, primarily because of reliability problems associated with water leaking into the lubricating oil.

GM has now restructured its diesel engine division, merging it with the diesel engine business of agricultural equipment manufacturer John Deere to form a 50/50 joint venture company which is to be called Dedec (Detroit Deere Corporation). It has also introduced an all new truck engine which has taken seven years to develop and is designed to leapfrog its competitors, chiefly Cummins and Caterpillar, in technical innovation, performance and market share.

Donovan Downham, Dedec's vicepresident of sales and marketing, is confident that the new engine, designated Series 60, will capture "at least 22% of the US heavy duty diesel market in the next five years."

Dedec's plans for selling the Series 60 engine in Europe are less clear, but there is no doubt that it will become available here. Floor, the Dutch specialist vehicle builder, has one of two Series 60 prototypes which have been shipped to Europe.

Foremost among the other European vehicle manufacturers who are at least potential customers for the Series 60 engines are ERF, Foden, Seddon Atkinson, Kassbohrer and Perlini, the Italian manufacturer of on/off-road trucks. Another surprising name on the list of possible customers for the new engine is Dal (and Leyland Oaf).

The Dutch manufacturer needs an engine to take it into the 300kW-plus onroad truck sector which is becoming increasingly important in Europe, and its own 11.6 litre engine, with a maximum power rating of 270kW (360hp) would probably be unduly stretched at much higher ratings. The Series 60 engine could provide Daf with a more costeffective option than a new engine development programme.

In the USA truck manufacturers who are already fitting Series 60 engines in their Class Eight models include Freightliner (owned by Daimler-Benz), Kenworth and Peterbilt (part of Paccar) and Volvo White, in addition to GM's own truck-building division, GMC.

There are two displacements in the Series 60 family: 11.1 and 12.7 litres. The larger engine has a 15% longer stroke than the 11.1 litre unit, sharing its 130mm bore and all but eight of its component parts. Unlike earlier Detroit Diesel engines this one is built to metric dimensions and, unlike the 71 and 92 Series Detroit two-strokes — which will remain in production — its designation bears no relation to its swept volume in cubic inches.

All Series 60 engines are in-line, six cylinder, turbocharged and air-to-air charge-cooled four-strokes. Uniquely, for an engine of this size and type, the Series 60 has a gear driven overhead camshaft, and it is the first diesel engine of any type to go into full production with a fully electronic control system for its fuel injection equipment as standard. The DDEC (Detroit Diesel Electronic Control) system became an option on vee-six and vee-eight 92 Series twostroke engines in 1985 (CM August 24).

NEW STANDARDS

The engineers who designed and developed this engine say their objective was to set new standards in fuel economy, reliability, durability, noise level, and exhaust emissions. It is in the first and last of these areas that the electronic control of both fuel metering and injection timing plays a crucial role.

For all twelve US variants of the new engine, with maximum power ratings from 186kW (250hp) to 298kW (400hp) at speeds of 1,800 and 2,000 rpm, Dedec's performance curves show that in terms of full load minimum specific fuel consumption the Series 60 matches, or in some cases is slightly ahead of the most fuel-efficient truck engines which are currently on the market, Like some versions of the Cummins 10 litre engine, Gardner's 12.7 litre 6LXDT and the latest Perkins Eagle 12.17 litre, the Series 60's SFC dips as low as 189 g/kW-h (0.311b/hp-h).

Significantly, it does so while comfortably meeting the current US Federal and even the more stringent Californian limits on diesel engine exhaust emissions. "This is a 50-state engine," says David Merrion, Dedec's vice-president of product engineering. He is also confident that by 1991, when even tougher emissions limits come into force in the USA, including a new limit on particulates emission, the Series 60 will be able to meet them without the bulky exhaust systemmounted particulate traps which all diesel engine manufacturers are currently experimenting with.

Some Dedec engineers believe that without such severe exhaust emission limits the Series 60 could break the 183g/1W-h (0.30Ib/hp-h) barrier, which would certainly put it ahead of all other production truck diesel engines.

As it stands, the Series 60 is claimed to give on-the-road fuel economy ranging from two to 15% better than any of its current US competitors.

When development work started on the Series 60, in 1980, it was intended that it would only be made in 11.1 Litres capacity. As the demand for power outputs above 261kW (550hp) steadily increased during the early eighties, however, DDA's engineers reached the conclusion that they would need a larger capacity to satisfy this demand without compromising durability — all Series 60 engines are intended to cover 800,000km (500,000 miles) before requiring a major overhaul.

Merrion says the reason for not simply derating the 12.7 litre unit for power outputs below 261kW is that the penalty in fuel consumption caused by the parasitic losses of the bigger engine would be about 3% worse than with the 11.1 litre unit. Increasing the swept volume of the 12.7 litre engine for still higher power outputs has already been considered.

There is enough space between the engine's wet cylinder liners for a larger bore version to give a swept volume of around 13.7 litres, and it is this engine in which DAF has shown particular interest.

http://archive.commercialmotor.com/article/14th-march-1987/24/detroit-chips-in-with-an-overhead-camshaft-six

[RoadwayR]

Very interesting, clears up a few things.  I wonder if Deere's involvement with the 60 Series really wasn't any more than casting some components for it.  I think it is likely that had the joint venture progressed Deere would have make some variant 60 Series available in their larger tractors.  

[Truck Shop]

In 1989 I was at a seminar put on to discuss tech issues on the Series 60, a question was asked about Deere's involvement with Detroit in the design of the 60. It was answered with a resounding {No}.

But that Deere was building or had built major components was noted.  

Edited July 2, 2019 by Truck Shop