Air Starter

[Freightrain]

Ok.......stupid idea.........but would be cool to have.

My question is how difficult would it be to switch mine over to air(from electric). Besides getting starter, some plumbing, and a large air tank.

I've got about 6 yrs on the batteries and I'm sure they'll be coming due for replacement. I could sell off the electric stuff and put air on it instead. Stupid idea, right.

How "undependable" would it be? I have air supply at home to keep it charged up, but on the road how bad could it be? Don't usually have long stays away from home(day or so). I suppose if I had problems I could use a tire to charge tank if it leaked down.

Anyone have some parts for sale that I could start piecing it together?

[ThaddeusW]

Ok air starters are very reliable. They will out last an electric by a factor of three and can be rebuilt easily. Reguardless of temprature you have plenty of starting power. As long as you ensure your plumbing is tight and sealed good you shouldn't have any problems. You can get jumped by any tractor because next to the air starter tank you would fit a glad hand to accept a trailer supply line. The only concern is a cold climate an engine can be stuborn to start and an air starter doesent has a much shorter crank time. Sometimes only a few seconds depending on the tank size.

They were and still are used extensively in Australia because they were much more reliable then an electric and you can jump yourself in the middle of nowhere. Jump yourself you say? YUP! They would have a hose or two and use the air pressure in the tires to fill the starter tank. Cool huh ? Then after they get jumped they just take the hose hook it to the trailer air supply and fill them back up.

So yea air starters are better

[other dog]

just don't park beside me in the truckstop and crank up when i'm sleeping-they're scary when you're not expecting it.

[Freightrain]

Mine sits in the garage ALL winter, so cold is not an issue.

Ya, as for noisy? I'll keep a "small" muffler on it LOL!!!

Ok, for the big question: Do you use a soleniod valve to actuate the starter(using button on dash), or do you have a large foot valve in floor(or someplace)?

[CML Service]

I just worked on a former postal tractor that a friend just bought. It has an air started and he bought it without hearing it run. I charged the tank repaired the connector at the starter switch and with a turn of the key it was instantly running. The key controls a air solenoid. I was surprized how quiet the starter was. I haven't heard one in years and I remember them being very loud. This one must have a good muffler on it. Perhaps with all the postal tractors that hit the market within the last year there may be some availible that were converted.

Chuck

[GearheadGrrrl]

I just worked on a former postal tractor that a friend just bought. It has an air started and he bought it without hearing it run. I charged the tank repaired the connector at the starter switch and with a turn of the key it was instantly running. The key controls a air solenoid. I was surprized how quiet the starter was. I haven't heard one in years and I remember them being very loud. This one must have a good muffler on it. Perhaps with all the postal tractors that hit the market within the last year there may be some availible that were converted.

Chuck

The '97 model Postal Service tractors (66xxxxx fleet numbers) were all built with air starters.

[ThaddeusW]

Mine sits in the garage ALL winter, so cold is not an issue.

Ya, as for noisy? I'll keep a "small" muffler on it LOL!!!

Ok, for the big question: Do you use a soleniod valve to actuate the starter(using button on dash), or do you have a large foot valve in floor(or someplace)?

You can use the start position for a solenoid or a dash mounted push valve. I think the dash valve looks cool .

[theakerstwo]

The older air starter motors used a lubercator that used fuel to lube the motor when it engages but the last 4or5 years the new ones dont have that on them. The senold will be wired to where it will not start when in gear and some times if the starter is not set up right the bendix will eat the ring gear real fast and i think your ring gear may be hard to find. I have worked on them for along time and conway had them but isee they have got away from them. I would not want one for the reason of the big tank will take up more room than the battery boxes.

[HeyCharger]

Ok.......stupid idea.........

Not at all. Hey Freightrain, finally going to join the elite, with an air-starter

A couple of tips;

1) When starting using air, hold the starter engaged until either the engine starts or you run out of air. Don't attempt a start, release, attempt another start, release, because you probably won't get another attempt

2) Have your air starter system and supply completely SEPARATE from ALL other air components, apart from ONE line where the air tank gets recharged and here use a one-way valve.

3) Before you start, look around the truck. If there are little old ladies, go and warn them before starting. If there are young kids/teenagers around - just hit the starter and enjoy the reactions

4) All fine and beaut to say you will use the air in the tyres to recharge the tank, and yes, here in Oz the working trucks still run at high pressure, but for me bob-tailing, I have at the most 30psi in the tyres

Therefore, when I have run out of air, I have flagged down 4WD's as a lot of these guys have compressors on board.

Enjoy one of the greatest sounds on earth.

Rod.

[ducky698]

I have air start on the two Macks i have, and its loud when starting but sounds great!

it makes people jump thats for sure! i did look at a portable compressor today that looked like it would charge the air system pretty quickly, it was around 600 buck but probly worth it if in the middle of no where.

Grant

[fields auto]

Ok.......stupid idea.........but would be cool to have.

My question is how difficult would it be to switch mine over to air(from electric). Besides getting starter, some plumbing, and a large air tank.

I've got about 6 yrs on the batteries and I'm sure they'll be coming due for replacement. I could sell off the electric stuff and put air on it instead. Stupid idea, right.

How "undependable" would it be? I have air supply at home to keep it charged up, but on the road how bad could it be? Don't usually have long stays away from home(day or so). I suppose if I had problems I could use a tire to charge tank if it leaked down.

Anyone have some parts for sale that I could start piecing it together?

I think a air starter is great! That was one of the selling points for me when I purchased my Mack. The only thing is that the air tank for the air starter is as big as a fuel tank. With that tank after it's aired up I get a 15 second blast. When the engine is warm however I need very little air to get it runing. I bet I can start that warm engine with a 3 second blast from the air starter!

[Superdog]

My boom truck has an air starter,but the only time it will start the truck is after it's been running and warmed up,so I usually have to use the Farmall starting system for the first start of the day,probably needs rebuilt.

[Flying Pig]

Look for someone that sells Optima batteries. The plates are rolled up with a fiberglass mat between them. The batteries look like a 6 pack.

I sell them here in Iowa and use them in my dragster and Ford 9000. My wifes pickup and kids cars have them also. Regular plate batteries let me down twice while racing and the tractor batteries were usually replaced annually.

Since going with the Optimas Ive never had an issue. They are more expensive but well worth the difference in reliability.

[Freightrain]

Glenn, I was poking around on I-R site and saw the "lubricated' versions. I realize I would be best off to make sure to get the right starter(and check engagement) to make sure it would fully engage properly as to not eat up the ring gear.

The air tank would be the biggest issue, as I was hoping to make room on the truck...not fill up MORE space LOL! Had thoughts of daisy chaining a few smaller round tanks(std issue stuff), and hang them under frame. I could hang two on each side of truck, one set where batteries were, and one set behind my diesel genset on drivers side. I know the more the better, but would have to work that out before going too far with it.

Running out of air would be a bad thing with this set up, as usually where I go....there AREN'T more trucks to use as "air chargers". I would definitely have air system totally separate from rest of truck, using a one way valve to charge. Maybe even a extra electric soleniod to shut if off while truck is off? Double reduntant? Something to think about. Think about it though. 15 secs of air is still quite a long time. Even after sitting in the garage all week, it doesn't take 5 secs to get starter. Sometimes I let it crank a few times just to get oil circulating before I let it fire off. With air, I guess I'd just hold the pedal(feed it fuel) and let it start. It's always been a good running engine and starts in single digits with NO ether! (tried and tested). Sure not with air starter, but won't be an issue now.

Guess I need to poke around and find a starter first, then some tanks. Long term project for next winter?

Flynpig: Ya, I'm familiar with Optima batteries. Nice, but I am not into the big price tags for what it is. I still run regular battery in my race car with no issues. I usually change it every few years and rotate it into one of my other hot rods. I still run (4) 12v batteries in the Mack (which is way overkill for it), but it will darn near run down the road on the starter. They are still in good shape, but I'm sure they are nearing their lifetime quota that is why I'm thinking changing over.

Thanks for all the input guys.

[HeyCharger]

The air tank would be the biggest issue, as I was hoping to make room on the truck...not fill up MORE space LOL! Had thoughts of daisy chaining a few smaller round tanks(std issue stuff), and hang them under frame. I could hang two on each side of truck, one set where batteries were, and one set behind my diesel genset on drivers side. I know the more the better, but would have to work that out before going too far with it.

With all due respect, I don't think the multiple daisy chain effect would supply the air you need.

You need a large AMOUNT (ie volume) in a small time frame. I think the main supply hose from my one tank to the starter is about 2" diam. The solenoid control hose, on the other hand is about 1/2". I think my air tank is around 200litres (40-50gal) capacity.

You really need the OOMMMPPHHH! very big and very quick.

I must be lucky, because when I hit my starter, the old girl fires immediately (ie within 1 second).

Regards, Rod.

[ciw65]

Yeah as Rod said you need big volume of air at pressure to make it work. The air line from tank to starter is 1" inside dia. MINIMUM! You would need to join daisy chained air tanks with bigger size air line to stop any loss of flow. I can't recall any standard air tanks with 1" fittings or threads in them so that will kill that. The other bonus is that in the event of electrical failure, you can still start the engine with the solenoid valve and a pen! Yep a good old disposable writing stick stuck up under the valve will unseat it and allow a start. I have seen air start tanks mounted in the back of sleeper cabs on R models so they don't take up valuable space on the chassis.

[ThaddeusW]

Both Hotrod and Chris are right you will need at least a 60 gallon tank. IR sells surge tanks to fit your needs. If you could chain 3 20 gallon tanks you need then to all have 3/4 ports to enable them to supply air to a 1 inch manifold to enable you to get enough air. That unfortunately leaves you with allot more connections to leak. I have 3 GALI air starters and one has a pinion and mount that fits my 673 but it is not easy to find parts for. Plus since its European all the connections are metric and I would have to fabricate my own supply port as its is an odd square four bolt flange.

Here is an IR on ebay. Dont know what it fits but you might be able to replace the flange and pinion for a Mack one. Its one of the newer turbine type motors so it doesent need the fuel return lubricator. This PDF has information.

[waslucky]

jus to add my two cents worth to your topic Freightrain , cpl little tricks i,ve learned w my air starters,

(1) they DO sound so cool w the mufflers OFF ! BUT if u work in dusty conditions they will injest dirt w/out the mufflers on an chew the vanes out real quick

(2) if truck is parked for a considerable time, 1st give your lift pump on Injector pump a few pumps to ensure pump has fuel, or install some 1 way check valves in feed line, as i,ve had trouble w both trucks in that regard

(3) On my Rmodel the air tank is factory mounted Under bunk ( 36ins) but Above chassi rails , sorta under the bed but between the 2 bunk boxes , ( not sure but gotta investigate but here in Aust some models were fitted with side mounted air starter tanks that didnt take up much more frame length than the battery boxes, but tank was similiar in diameter to fuel tanks, mainly our Titans, some F model cabovers and the Cruiseliners, my MIR has side mounted tank but it,s a little longer and smaller in diameter

(4) Dont be afraid to purchase a unit that requires a rebuild as the rebuild kit from Ingersol Rand is relatively inexpensive an the actual job is a walk in the park although DO check that the engagement gear is in good condition, and i have had some that have damage to the alloy stator that the vanes go into

(5) above all of that they DO scare ol laides an kids when hit un announced an last thing i,d personally go with the fuel lube model as w any air tool lubrication will give u a longer service life

[Freightrain]

Wow...this is starting to sound scary. I knew that it took ALOT of air, but I was hoping that I could daisy chain some tanks, but with what you guys are saying(and I understand) that the pipes have to be large enough to not restrict anything, plus more headaches and possible leaks.

With my little short WB, adding anything is near impossible, especially behind the cab as trailer would swing and hit it. I suppose if I removed the battery boxes, I could add a 40 gal tank(looka like to fuel tank) and that would suffice?

Have to do some soul searching and alot of brainstorming before I dig into this too far I guess. I suppose the best bet would be find a truck and get the set up off it. All known and working.

Thanks guys.

[theakerstwo]

Larry the factory will use # 20 straflex size hose to the starter from the starter valve. so that is a lot of air so you may start to say why do i want to here one of these things anyway. Stuff like that is why i cant here nothing now. Oh i hear good but it is all ringing.

[GearheadGrrrl]

And avoid any used units with the "composite" tanks- the Postal Service had a few blow up under pressure. They were all replaced with steel tanks, but a few of the "explosive" composite ones may still be around. You can tell them by there "carbon fiber" texture.

[Freightrain]

For once a weekend..........I'm not too worried about the noise. Heck...ya ever hear my truck at full sing on the highway? HUH?? WHAT??? CAN'T HEAR YA.......

The starter is the LEAST of my worries LOL!

[Doug Mitchell]

I remember the first time I heard an air starter. I was at Wegman's in the late 80s, and one of their drivers fired off his R model with an air starter. I must have jumped 2 feet in the air. I had no idea what it was.

[Packer]

I've spent the last 13 years working on natural gas fuled engines.

In most cases the starters are natural gas or air.

I've had very good luck with TDI starters.

They start on any compressed gas with max pressure of 150psi.

One starter will crank a 1600 hp Cat 3606 or 3516 (1000hp) at 400 rpm.

I've seen TDIs' crank 7700hp Cat turbines at 8000 rpm (geared up)

These are non-lubricated starters and seem to last for ever.

There should build an exact replacement for an IR, are cheaper to buy and seem to have better life.

The TDI also have a 'Soft Start' that engages the drive pinion, then turns the starter.

Savs a bunch on flywheels.

Just a thought.

Packer