New Mack Logo

[kscarbel]

The MAN D20 and D26 euro 5 are not EGR only, they need DEF. except a few UK variants.

While Euro-5 was in effect in Europe, the MAN D20 and D26 were available in two versions, EGR only, and SCR.

"Fitted with cooled exhaust-gas recirculation (EGR), most of MAN engines feature an exhaust-gas cleaning system that requires no additives (AdBlue) and thus comply with the Euro 5 standard using the innovative Pure Diesel technology"

http://www.man-engines.com/en/on-road/euro_5/Euro_5.html

For Euro-6 now in effect, they are only available with SCR.

http://www.man-engines.com/en/on-road/euro_6/Euro_6.html

[kscarbel]

Having explained that thousands of Euro-5 MAN trucks are running throughout Europe with EGR-spec engines. allow me to elaborate further.

The majority of MAN’s Euro-5 versions of the D08, D20 and D26 engines utilized EGR for compliance. A significant advance in EGR technology for Euro-5 was MAN’s development of “closed loop” control of the EGR rate (the percentage of engine exhaust gas recycled back through the engine). A downstream 'lambda' sensor is used (the same type used in after-treatment systems to measure tailpipe oxygen content) to control EGR, with recirculation rates of 30% and higher. The sensor constantly monitors the level of NOx being expelled to the atmosphere, sending signals to the engine’s ECU, which automatically regulates the EGR rate to ensure compliance with the legal Euro 5 NOx limit of 2g/kWh – but preventing the amount of recirculated exhaust going too high, which would cause poor fuel economy and shorten engine life. Improved cooling of the recirculated exhaust gases, and a higher EGR rate for cooler air/exhaust gas mixture temperatures during combustion, result in less NO_x during combustion. The new Lambda-controlled EGR regulation assures optimum EGR rate in all engine operating conditions for improved fuel efficiency.

MAN's Euro-5 EGR engines use 2-stage turbocharging. The first turbocharger is a small, high-pressure unit that spins up to speed quickly at low engine speeds when exhaust flow is moderate, giving good response and starting torque. A waste-gate valve opens progressively as engine speed rises, allowing up to 30% of the exhaust gas to by-pass the high-pressure turbocharger and go directly to the second turbocharger, a larger low-pressure unit with a peak boost pressure of 2.6 bar. This air is then fed to the high-pressure compressor where boost multiplication reaches 4.0 bar. The high boost pressure is needed for MAN’s Euro-5 EGR engines because they are recirculating over 30% of exhaust gas back into the inlet manifold, but still need to get adequate fresh ambient air into the engine. With increased intake air density, regulating engine load between the high- and low-pressure stages gives excellent turbocharger response at all engine speeds, and lower charging of the individual turbochargers.

MAN's cooled EGR design uses a 2-stage intercooling system. Engine coolant is cooled by a low-temperature radiator to a few degrees above outside temperature and applied to 2 engine-mounted charge-air coolers (low pressure and high pressure air/water heat exchangers) for improved charge air cooling. (The new design allowed MAN to remove the large charge-air piping at the front of the truck and enlarge the radiator.

Because increasing the proportion of exhaust gas recirculated in MAN's Euro-5 EGR engines to 30% is still not enough to achieve the 43% reduction in NO_x needed for Euro-5, all MAN Euro-5 EGR engines have an "Oxi-Kat" DOC (diesel oxidation catalyst) in the exhaust systems. This DOC supplements the EGR system's NO_x reduction ability to maintain particulate emissions at the required 20 mg/kWh. Oxi-Kat replaced PM-Kat, a combined DOC + POC system at on MAN Euro-4 engines. The POC (particulate oxidation catalyst) is not needed on MAN's Euro-5 engines because more particulates are removed during combustion as a result of higher injection pressures and 2-stage turbocharging.

MAN successfully made EGR work reliably with reasonable performance for Euro-5, but also realized that based on current technology, a transition to SCR was necessary for Euro-6. By choosing SCR to meet Euro-6, the EGR rate can be reduced so there is ZERO risk of fuel degradation and engine life.

Navistar must have thought they were smarter than the Germans when they tried to achieve EPA2010/Euro-6 with a Massive EGR solution (EGR levels from 35% to 50%). Ironic given the MaxxForce 11 and 13 are the MAN D20 and D26.

Despite MAN's support of EGR, the requirements of MAN's high horsepower Euro-5 engines required MAN to use SCR like its competitors. Despite MAN's 2-stage turbocharging, high pressure 1,800 bar common rail injection and 2-stage intercooling system (indirect and main intercooling), MAN's high horsepower EGR engines run hotter than SCR engines.

MAN's 440hp D20 needs SCR to meet Euro-5. If buyers requiring 440hp performance wanted to avoid the hassle and cost of AdBlue (and the weight and chassis space penalty caused by the AdBlue tank and dosing unit), they had the option of ordering the 440hp version of the larger D26 engine. The 440hp EGR-equipped D26 was similar in price to the 440hp SCR-equipped D20, but customers buying the 440hp SCR-equipped D20 could expect 5% better fuel economy

The two higher Euro-5 ratings of the 12.4 liter D26 engine, 480 and 540hp, made SCR unavoidable for NOx control, primarily for cooling reasons. Again, despite MAN's 2-stage turbocharging and 2-stage intercooling system, high horsepower MAN engines with EGR would require much larger radiators and correspondingly greater throughput of air past the engine and outwards through the rear of the cab. Also, sound shielding around engines, installed in recent years to meet EU drive-by noise limits, added to the EGR-related cooling challenges. An unjustifiable major redesign of MAN's TGS and TGX cabs would have been required to accommodate the larger radiators necessary to control NOx levels at high horsepower levels with EGR.

Engine cooling considerations required MAN's 16-liter 680hp V8 engine to use SCR. (FYI: This engine was jointly developed by MAN and Liebherr for truck and construction machines.

[Superdog]

Well after today's events,I have the new logo figured out. The Bulldog is sitting there waiting for UPS to bring his parts. Seems that repair parts for 2007 Macks are NLA ,so you have to buy complete assemblies instead ,that are higher price,so the dealer doesn't keep it in stock,so your 2007 truck sits idle for 2 days.

[Dirtymilkman]

Parts discontinue is a typical Volvo thing. If they design anything new you can bet in 5 years the old stuff is NLA.

[Barry]

The way I see it, the logo design and video are mediocre...not much creativity involved but that is the norm these days with any company! Young minds are taking over and they just are not as creative or skilled as the work force used to be! With that said, I certainly see the need for change and updates. A company needs to stay fresh and competitive. New logos will always come and go, no big deal! Mack is fortunate to have such a rich, well reserved history and we will always have that to look back to. No one knows what the future will bring but we all know where the past has been. I know that there are a lot of Volvo haters and that is fine, but there has to come a point where we understand that Mack would probably not be here today if not for Volvo's support. We don't have to like it but I do wish everyone would realize that Volvo isn't the worst thing to ever happen to Mack. (Did everyone forget about Renault...LOL?) Seriously people, I do get a ton of reports about negativity and it is starting to get old. I will never censor comments but I would like to encourage everyone to try and curb the negativity and help lighten up the forums! We all know how deep the feelings run and it is a good thing but there really isn't a reason to keep displaying the hostility on these forum pages. I myself am glad that Volvo is investing in the Mack Brand and hasn't wanted to just 'kill' it off. The best thing we can do on BMT is show support for Mack! That is what Volvo is looking for. The negativity that oozes from here does nothing but hurt the Mack brand and tarnish ties with the mother ship. Remember, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar!

[fxfymn]

Missed most of this after the initial post. No hard feelings for Volvo here; I'm sure Mack would have folded without them, but when I see companies spending time, money, and marketing effort updating their logo I see a red flag. What's the old saying about putting lipstick on a pig?

Ford, Chevrolet, and lots of other Fortune 500 companies are using the same logos they have since their inception. When you see a blue oval it means one thing to you; FoMoCo. Changing the logo does not make the product better. All it says is that the company views themselves as having a poor image and rather than working on product improvement to improve market share they would prefer to sell a new image.

Good product, good customer service equals good image; a new logo does not. Especially one that just invites ridicule from your competitors customers. Just my opinion.

[Barry]

I do agree...I'd rather see the logo stay the same! Keep it iconic!

[41180]

Missed most of this after the initial post. No hard feelings for Volvo here; I'm sure Mack would have folded without them, but when I see companies spending time, money, and marketing effort updating their logo I see a red flag. What's the old saying about putting lipstick on a pig?

Ford, Chevrolet, and lots of other Fortune 500 companies are using the same logos they have since their inception. When you see a blue oval it means one thing to you; FoMoCo. Changing the logo does not make the product better. All it says is that the company views themselves as having a poor image and rather than working on product improvement to improve market share they would prefer to sell a new image.

Good product, good customer service equals good image; a new logo does not. Especially one that just invites ridicule from your competitors customers. Just my opinion.

its a bulldog sitting on top of the word Mack. What is to be ridiculed about that?

[Lmackattack]

Good point Fxfymn....when I see Cadillac I think of the chevron symbol, Chevy the bow tie, ford the oval...etc...

They all may have slightly changed font or font size but the basics stayed through all those years.I think the new mack logo lacks tradition. It's bland and cold compared to other Mack logos of the past. I dident like the old logo much either but it was somwhat withing tradition.

Personally I like the older bulldog logo from the 70's. It was simple,classic and colorful.

[41180]

If you think about it macks have always had different styles of writing on there trucks . For example on a superliner on the grill it says Mack in simple straight letters.on the side of the hood it says Mack in the more slanted cursive style. Then on the steering wheel it says Mack in block letters .so theres 3 different types of logos/Mack lettering just on one model of truck

[220cummins]

Times change, people change, companies change, fades die out, people die, and companies die. Like it or not (Volvo) investing in Mack has kept the company from dying. Last time I checked American workers and American Supplies were still in business because of Mack. It's a global economy, if the profits go to Sweden so what. They are still investing and so far not killing it but making the Mack Brand thrive and keep or gain market share. As a young guy that's grown up around Macks and now working on Macks, new and old, I can say I'm glad that Volvo has committed to Mack. Although not perfect, Mack still has a bulldog on the hood and Macks are still make here in Pennsylvania. Let's move on please. This is getting so old. Every couple weeks its the same negativity and same old topic. WE ARE BEATING A DEAD HORSE.

[Bullheaded]

Words of wisdom Barry. I fully agree with all you have said. If we don't all support Mack and Volvo....what do think will eventually happen?

Do you think they will want to keep Mack around when all they see on these forums is hate?

Like I said before, I run Freightliner, Western Star, International and Peterbilt also, and they all have issues.

[kscarbel]

Words of wisdom Barry. I fully agree with all you have said. If we don't all support Mack and Volvo....what do think will eventually happen?

Do you think they will want to keep Mack around when all they see on these forums is hate?

Like I said before, I run Freightliner, Western Star, International and Peterbilt also, and they all have issues.

I couldn't agree with you more. Why don't you take the lead in showing your support for Volvo and the Swedish company's Mack brand by selling your Freightliners, Western Stars, Internationals and Peterbilts, and making your fleet exclusive to Mack and Volvo trucks.

[Bullheaded]

I would very much like to, but the local dealer won't play ball like the FL/Star dealer. Plus the FL/WS dealer is the biggest and has the most mechanics. Don't run International since my 05 Paystar because can't get Cat power anymore. The Pete was bought cheap used and is for sale.

And the reason I bought the International in 05 was because of all the E7 engine problems at the time. I had a 2000 CH 70" mid rise, 460 that they never could get right.

But one of my good friends is a salesman and another is a mechanic at Mack dealerships in different cities, so they give me the low down on the new ones and what I hear is aside from the minor crap every make suffers from....all is very good with the new ones.

So, as I have said, if you know how to run a successful business, then you realize you need a good dealer and service department behind you.

But rest assured, if my dealer situation changes I would buy a new Mack in a heartbeat, especially now after seeing all the build quality issues with this Star.

[Bullheaded]

Gee, I almost forgot....we do have a Mack, LOL.

[WilliamBos]

I agree. They are the best trucks on the road, bar none!! But some cannot get over that Volvo thing.

I would very much like to, but the local dealer won't play ball like the FL/Star dealer. Plus the FL/WS dealer is the biggest and has the most mechanics. Don't run International since my 05 Paystar because can't get Cat power anymore. The Pete was bought cheap used and is for sale.

And the reason I bought the International in 05 was because of all the E7 engine problems at the time. I had a 2000 CH 70" mid rise, 460 that they never could get right.

But one of my good friends is a salesman and another is a mechanic at Mack dealerships in different cities, so they give me the low down on the new ones and what I hear is aside from the minor crap every make suffers from....all is very good with the new ones.

So, as I have said, if you know how to run a successful business, then you realize you need a good dealer and service department behind you.
But rest assured, if my dealer situation changes I would buy a new Mack in a heartbeat, especially now after seeing all the build quality issues with this Star.

[mackdaddy]

just think if CAT would have bought Mack......... or.........?? Mack struggled since the 50's. We have a local car dealer that went public and started doing roll ups of other dealers and is now doing over 4 billion in sales.

Now think of the investment that Mack had to make and continues to have to make along with all of the liability and I doubt as a part of Volvo it even does close to 4 billion. Being an integrated truck manufacturer is a tough business.

[jeffmackb]

I reckon it looks like crap.

[bullhusk]

The way I see it, the logo design and video are mediocre...not much creativity involved but that is the norm these days with any company! Young minds are taking over and they just are not as creative or skilled as the work force used to be! With that said, I certainly see the need for change and updates. A company needs to stay fresh and competitive. New logos will always come and go, no big deal! Mack is fortunate to have such a rich, well reserved history and we will always have that to look back to. No one knows what the future will bring but we all know where the past has been. I know that there are a lot of Volvo haters and that is fine, but there has to come a point where we understand that Mack would probably not be here today if not for Volvo's support. We don't have to like it but I do wish everyone would realize that Volvo isn't the worst thing to ever happen to Mack. (Did everyone forget about Renault...LOL?) Seriously people, I do get a ton of reports about negativity and it is starting to get old. I will never censor comments but I would like to encourage everyone to try and curb the negativity and help lighten up the forums! We all know how deep the feelings run and it is a good thing but there really isn't a reason to keep displaying the hostility on these forum pages. I myself am glad that Volvo is investing in the Mack Brand and hasn't wanted to just 'kill' it off. The best thing we can do on BMT is show support for Mack! That is what Volvo is looking for. The negativity that oozes from here does nothing but hurt the Mack brand and tarnish ties with the mother ship. Remember, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar!

Barry, First off thank you for this wonderful site!! Now what I'm going to say here is just my opinion. First off I think people are pissed off at Volvo not just about Mack but about how they handled themselves in the US market with what they did to White GMC Autocars and I think if not for the Mack legend they would have pushed them off the face of the earth. If you are getting reports from Volvo about the negativity that oozes from the members who own or who would maybe own a new Mack if not for Volvo? Does Volvo realize that the diehard Mack people don't like the fact that Volvo is putting their motors transmissions into Mack trucks and just changing the name? Again just my opinion but If Volvo sees negativity coming from the members of the Mack truck site then don't you think they should be looking across each other at the board meetings and saying hey we got to change this! people aren't liking what's going on with Volvo Mack the Volvo marriage whatever you want to call it but if there arrogant then they're just going to let it go. Volvo has got to change their way of doing business in America because I don't see it getting any better with the public true they are selling a lot of trucks but I guess like you said in your post Barry we will see what happens in the future but it's up the Volvo to get some people out there and try to start to Turn the negativity around. A good start would be to have all of the US Mack engineers design and build a new motor from scratch and let it be known that this motor was entirely built and designed by the Mack engineers in United States then I would start changing the Mack to look like a Mack and not a Volvo and maybe just maybe Volvo will start winning over a lot more people and I think the negativity will start changing to a positive and I think that's all that the Mack people want is a true Mack design truck and not a Volvo with a Mack badge on it again just my opinion thank you

BULLHUSK

[kscarbel]

If Volvo sees negativity coming from the members of the Mack truck site then don't you think they should be looking across each other at the board meetings and saying hey we got to change this! people aren't liking what's going on with Volvo Mack the Volvo marriage whatever you want to call it but if there arrogant then they're just going to let it go. Volvo has got to change their way of doing business in America because I don't see it getting any better with the public true they are selling a lot of trucks but I guess like you said in your post

Well said. If Volvo is unhappy with the negativity, rather than arrogantly trying to stamp out that negativity, a prudent management would sit down and do some serious self-reflecting on how their demeanor and U.S. market strategy is offending a sizeable amount of their current and potential customer base.

Or, finally call a spade a spade and put their entire North American truck sales strategy under the Volvo name.

On another note, I would also like to take a moment to thank Barry for this outstanding website. On any given day, there is a healthy exchange of information which is invaluable to others. This website, which has no rival, is a massive knowledge base on all aspects relating to Mack trucks.

[kscarbel]

I would very much like to, but the local dealer won't play ball like the FL/Star dealer. Plus the FL/WS dealer is the biggest and has the most mechanics. Don't run International since my 05 Paystar because can't get Cat power anymore. The Pete was bought cheap used and is for sale.

And the reason I bought the International in 05 was because of all the E7 engine problems at the time. I had a 2000 CH 70" mid rise, 460 that they never could get right.

But one of my good friends is a salesman and another is a mechanic at Mack dealerships in different cities, so they give me the low down on the new ones and what I hear is aside from the minor crap every make suffers from....all is very good with the new ones.

So, as I have said, if you know how to run a successful business, then you realize you need a good dealer and service department behind you.

But rest assured, if my dealer situation changes I would buy a new Mack in a heartbeat, especially now after seeing all the build quality issues with this Star.

Please let me make sure that I am following you. You feel that we should all support Volvo and Mack. However, because your Mack location does not provide you with sales and after-sales service that meets your expectations, you do not actually show your support for Volvo and Mack (ie. you operate Freightliners, Western Stars, Internationals, Peterbilts........and one Mack).

[Bullheaded]

First off, if you saw my last post, we do have one Mack highway tractor.

And that is only one dealer, if I was in another region it would be a different outcome.

On our last two purchases we saved over 12 grand each truck. Would you pass that up with fuel working out to $5.90/gallon up here?

I guess the moral here is you can never change the one-sided mind. So go on bad mouthing Volvo and saying how much you all hate Mack now, and we'll see what they do in a couple more years. Then Barry can change the site name to Old Mack Trucks when the new ones are dead and gone.

I'll stop posting about it now because clearly there are so many people that have the knowledge and finances here to take control of Mack and make it the most successful company out there. So have at it.

[fxfymn]

One thing that has not been brought up is the cost to do an "image makeover".

Barry can probably answer this, but are the dealers going to be required to change all of their signage to match the new logo? If so, who is paying for the changes? Would the dealers rather invest in more equipment and tools to improve productivity or new signs?

[Green Dash]

Well put, bullhusk and kscarbel.

There are many members on here who have driven, owned, sold, or built Mack trucks and have some very valuable input that can be used to help Mack earn the reputation and brand loyalty it once enjoyed. Sadly, the phrase "Built like Mack Truck" has become just another meaningless corporate slogan that has been slapped on a product that can no longer distinguish itself from it's competitors. Are some of the comments here harsh? absolutely, but many of us here were raised in blue-collar families in a time when a truck was a truck and a Mack was a Mack. There was no such thing as "warm and fuzzy" or "political correctness" and if you had something to say, you said it. A statement should be judged by its content, not how it was conveyed. I'm sure all of us here are glad that Mack still exists, even if only in name and like it or not it was Volvo that made the save. However, I don't think it's possible for a group of educated consumers to have a discussion about any large corporation without a single negative comment being made.

[41180]

This argument is really about the good old days vs todays technology. The old trucks had a simple ruggedness to them that will never be duplicated. They also had there problems. Rough ride small cabs coffin sleepers no engine brakes or very effective ones. Todays trucks have solved those problems but have there new sets of issues government mandates are most of the problems so modern trucks have lost the character of the old trucks. Mack lost alot of sales when they got out of the business of making a modern classic. I blame Renault for this not Volvo. Volvo has actually made better looking macks than Renault let them have. Example chu rawhide and titan.