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RobM626

Vibration that 2 mechanics and Mack dealer can’t figure out

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3 minutes ago, theakerstwo said:

The single cylinder compressor is timed to a cummins engine.Not many guys know it and i dont know if it matters but look at a shop manual

I knew you would come back with something to say about my post, you always do. But the single cylinder compressors don't run any smoother timed or un-timed. And yes I knew that.

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Ok you knew that but i understood you to say they dont time so my mistake.

 

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Hey guys sorry was out cleaning snow for past couple days. I’m gonna have the clutch unbolted and check again. I did that about 5 months ago and listened to the motor and me and the mechanic both agreed the vibration must be coming from the clutch/transmission . That’s why I installed the 3rd clutch and then after that the transmission. Is it possible that if the flywheel is the culprit you won’t really feel the vibration as bad if the clutch is not bolted to it? And then once the clutch is attached I start to hear/feel the vibration and chatter from the clutch which ends up messing up the clutch. 

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On 3/21/2018 at 3:52 PM, mrsmackpaul said:

On a Crummins I know the compressor has to be timed with number 1 at TDC so the the compressor hits TDC at the same time as number 1 does and I have been told this is needed to make it run smoother 

This wouldnt explain the un even ware on the clutch and to my thinking there could only be a few things that would cause uneven ware

When it is said that the clutch wares unevenly in what way does it ware unevevly ???? is there a photo of crook the crook clutch ????

Also I seem to recall reading on here it was miss firing for some time with crook injectors ???? this causes the motor to run out of balance, I hope it wasnt run for long like this as may have damaged something in the motor 
Does this type of motor have balancers spinning and timed internally or just a harmonic balancer on the front ( never worked on a E7 so no idea )

   
Paul 

I don’t have any pictures but when the clutch was showed to me, if you look at the friction pads you would see that only 40-50% of the pad had wear on it and the rest of the pad still looked new. Then the mechanic told me I should be able to slide a feeler gauge between the friction plates and intermediate plate and there was a zero gap. Now I don’t really know the real specifics of this because it has been a learning experience for me but I would think the way that the pads aren’t getting full surface contact would mean something is off balance or off alignment. I don’t know. 

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6 hours ago, turckster said:

With the clutch unbolted and slightly pulled back, if the vibration disappears the the next step is to pull the trans. The issue could be a misalignment issue or wear.  Check bellhousing to flywheel housing mating surfaces for obvious wear/damage, dial indicate for out of round flywheel housing. These pictures are an example of a bad trans bellhousing mating surface.... not good 

20180321_140426.jpg

20180321_140358.jpg

I think I’m going to have to find a new shop because I really don’t think he’s going to even do all that for me anymore. IT really pisses me off that I paid all this money to three shops and the problem persists. Now I’m gonna have to pay for stuff all over again. And who knows if the problem will be solved.

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12 hours ago, Truck Shop said:

One item that should be showing wear if the input shaft is out of alignment is the nose dowel on the input shaft. If it has wear every time you clutch it the driving discs 

will be off center. IMO 

When I put the 2nd clutch in I replaced the input shaft and input shaft bearing. The shaft had no damage but I replaced it anyway. The bearing may have been on its way out that’s why I replaced it with the updated new type of bearing... then when I did the tranny a couple months ago that was a new input shaft and bearing again. Problem still there

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On 3/12/2018 at 4:55 PM, Truck Shop said:

                               The only thing I can add to this is a strange-odd issue I ran across years ago with a similar problem. Had a K100 KW with a Detroit 8V92 that had a clutch changed out

                                by another shop before it landed on our door step. Found the bell housing bolts were bottomed out but the bolts and washers were right up to the flat surface in

                                the bolt pockets on the bell and really no gap. But the bell was moving ever so slightly. Probably not your problem on this issue but thought I would bring it up.

                               

                                Truck Shop 

Those pictures above are a great example of a loose bell to restructure and what happens to the bell. There is no way you can keep alignment when that occurs.  

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3 hours ago, RobM626 said:

Hey guys sorry was out cleaning snow for past couple days. I’m gonna have the clutch unbolted and check again. I did that about 5 months ago and listened to the motor and me and the mechanic both agreed the vibration must be coming from the clutch/transmission . That’s why I installed the 3rd clutch and then after that the transmission. Is it possible that if the flywheel is the culprit you won’t really feel the vibration as bad if the clutch is not bolted to it? And then once the clutch is attached I start to hear/feel the vibration and chatter from the clutch which ends up messing up the clutch. 

In my mind the more weight you add to an already out of balance situation the worse it is likly to get! even if the weight is balanced its self! you could try un bolting the clutch and turning it 180 on the wheel and re attach it ! see if it changes the situation Don't know if We asked this question DID YOU HAVE THE FLYWHWEEL   resurfaced? If you have not owned the truck since new then you would not have a clue If you have then you should have record of this being done! I have seen instances where 60 thou had to come off the surface to make em flat again thats a fare jag of meat that could potentially throw things out of balance at 7 plus inches from the centre line of the crank grams  count!  

 

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Flywheel was resurfaced like 3-4 times in the past year and a half. We have had the truck since new ... I’m sure it was resurfaced a couple more times in the 16 years before that.. I told every mechanic maybe I should change the flywheel they kept saying I can just resurface it it’s fine... now to really check this out I’m gonna have to go to another shop and pay the $1500 or so to have them drop the tranny and who knows whatever else. Then Everytime I go to a different shop they always find something else wrong that the shop before did and I end up paying for those mistakes. It seems like Everytime I go to a new shop they’re so quick to point out other people’s mistakes but they can never live up to their own.

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Another note on the flywheel. When I had the second clutch put it they put like a spacer which looked like a second clutch brake. I personally never saw that before and wondered about it. Why would you need to put that spacer if the flywheel was in spec? That makes me think too much material was taken off the flywheel. Then the next mechanic took the spacer out and didn’t use one. He told me it was in spec... I don’t know who to believe anymore

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23 minutes ago, Rob said:

Each time you grind a flywheel you remove facing or friction surface. The allows the clutches to ride deeper, (bowl type flywheel) and increases the distance the clutch brake has to travel and it can lose it's effectiveness not being allowed to apply with full pressure due to this increased travel distance. The "shim" is installed to bring this clearance back to somewhat normal for the clutch brake to travel or compress. A flywheel surfaced that many time is probably best replaced.

I agree... I asked for it to be replaced twice . I guess they thought they knew better than me

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9 minutes ago, RobM626 said:

I agree... I asked for it to be replaced twice . I guess they thought they knew better than me

The flywheel gets hot from normal usage. It is probably warped slightly and this translates into vibration. If the case it wouldn't be the first time I've seen it.

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8 minutes ago, Rob said:

The flywheel gets hot from normal usage. It is probably warped slightly and this translates into vibration. If the case it wouldn't be the first time I've seen it.

On the etech Does the crank position sensor get its reading from the 2 notches on the flywheel?

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The E-7 series of engine is out of my area of expertise electronically. I really never worked with them as they are newer than my involvement with trucks.

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Just now, Rob said:

The E-7 series of engine is out of my area of expertise electronically. I really never worked with them as they are newer than my involvement with trucks.

Gotchya

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ECU will calculate using the flywheel sensor and the one up on right front of the engine near the breather outlet. Two sensors allows it to think redundantly when one fails. It will code if the two signals don't match, or usually when you collect enough clutch metal on the magnetic tip of the flywheel sensor. Might pull the flywheel sensor and see if it was damaged during clutch installation?

   

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1 hour ago, Mack Technician said:

ECU will calculate using the flywheel sensor and the one up on right front of the engine near the breather outlet. Two sensors allows it to think redundantly when one fails. It will code if the two signals don't match, or usually when you collect enough clutch metal on the magnetic tip of the flywheel sensor. Might pull the flywheel sensor and see if it was damaged during clutch installation?

   

I just replaced both sensors last week... the one near flywheel had a ton of metal shavings on it. Reason I’m asking is if the flywheel wasn’t running smooth would it throw off the reading of the sensor and make the motor stumble a little when returning to idle? When the rpm gets to like 900 it studders like 3 times before reaching idle.

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9 hours ago, RobM626 said:

I don’t have any pictures but when the clutch was showed to me, if you look at the friction pads you would see that only 40-50% of the pad had wear on it and the rest of the pad still looked new. Then the mechanic told me I should be able to slide a feeler gauge between the friction plates and intermediate plate and there was a zero gap. Now I don’t really know the real specifics of this because it has been a learning experience for me but I would think the way that the pads aren’t getting full surface contact would mean something is off balance or off alignment. I don’t know. 

Were the pads only worn on the out side or only on the inside ???

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1 hour ago, RobM626 said:

I just replaced both sensors last week... the one near flywheel had a ton of metal shavings on it. Reason I’m asking is if the flywheel wasn’t running smooth would it throw off the reading of the sensor and make the motor stumble a little when returning to idle? When the rpm gets to like 900 it studders like 3 times before reaching idle.

sensor (ECU) is the master, engine is the slave, in this case I don't think slave can control masters ability to calculate. Long as sensors are functional, properly set at front timing gap and not tripping a code.....all is well (theoretically).  

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3 hours ago, RobM626 said:

I just replaced both sensors last week... the one near flywheel had a ton of metal shavings on it. Reason I’m asking is if the flywheel wasn’t running smooth would it throw off the reading of the sensor and make the motor stumble a little when returning to idle? When the rpm gets to like 900 it studders like 3 times before reaching idle.

For all the work you have done on this truck Mack should owe you some money for the research you have done on their behalf.This should be a case study.The culprit might eventually be a $500 fix.

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2 hours ago, mrsmackpaul said:

Were the pads only worn on the out side or only on the inside ???

I I believe it was the inside... the last time I saw it was July but I’m pretty sure it was inside

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39 minutes ago, macks in nigeria said:

For all the work you have done on this truck Mack should owe you some money for the research you have done on their behalf.This should be a case study.The culprit might eventually be a $500 fix.

Haha. That would be something huh? I  would be so happy if the fix was a 3 digit number. All of my bills were either 4 or 5 digit numbers

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