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What happened to COAL


david wild
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Wind power is very sporadic at best. It can only work because it feeds into the system that is already powered by coal, nuclear or hydro which are 3 main things do gooders have all but abolished. 

I would like to have wind and solar to power my own home, only to be self-sufficient. My electric bill is almost unmanageable, but start up costs for solar is prohibitive also. However, solar and wind power are not cost effective to provide power to the masses.

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From the Bloomberg /Sierra Club's Beyond Coal Campaign mailer urging support for the U.N. Global Warming Treaty.              
Take it for what it is worth.

The coal industry has been in decline for a decade, partly as a result of the natural gas boom, but mostly because consumer activists demanding action on climate change. Community groups across the U.S. have found ways in persuading utilities to close dirty old coal plants and transition to cleaner forms of energy. The Sierra Club’s Beyond Coal campaign (which Bloomberg Philanthropies funds) has helped close 175 AND phase out more than 200 coal plants over the past five years.

The EPA’s Clean Power Plan merely continues this trend. Consider this: More than 50 percent of U.S. electricity came from coal in 2005. Today 10 years later, it is down below 33 percent. The EPA’s new rules project a decline to 17 percent or less by 2025.

Thanks to the Sierra Club and others. we are already halfway to the EPA’s goal -- seven years before its rules take full effect, and before many of the coal plant closings that are scheduled to happen over the next decade. When the latest phase of the Sierra Club’s campaign succeeds, coal power should fall far below 5 percent by 2030 -- even if the EPA and the White House rules are rescinded by the next president, the UN Treaty will stay in effect.

The rules and treaties are vitally important for both Global Warming and for ending the disparities of international economies. that’s why Bloomberg Philanthropies is investing $124 million to help select groups convince people and states they need the regulations.

The rules include the first-ever limits on carbon emissions and a stiff carbon tax that will send a clear message to the coal industry that they won’t be coming back...ever.  President Barack Obama said in November 2015  “The idea of setting standards and cutting carbon pollution is not new, it’s not radical. What is new is that starting today, Washington is starting to catch up with the vision of key environmental groups dreams for the country. The EPA’s new rules allow the U.S. to show that we are leading by example, putting more pressure on other countries to act. My doing this is to protect communities from coal’s harmful effects -- in the end the American people will emerge victorious as the world leader in the war on global warming." 

Edited by 41chevy

"OPERTUNITY IS MISSED BY MOST PEOPLE BECAUSE IT IS DRESSED IN OVERALLS AND LOOKS LIKE WORK"  Thomas Edison

 “Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely, in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy shit, what a ride!’

P.T.CHESHIRE

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10 minutes ago, RedBullDog said:

Wind power will never be anything but a small additional source for electrical generation, unless they cover the entire open countryside with them.

  They built up an addition to the wind farm that was situated from east to west about 8 miles north of my house.  Now they run east to west for 8 miles just across the road to the north 1/2 a mile.  They shut them down every time the wind is expected to be over 35 mph, which is often this time of year.   They don't really make alot of sound unless you're outside, then it sounds like an airliner going overhead at altitude.  

The payments to landowners would be a tremendous boon to our local economy, if only more of the land was actually owned by local farmers.  They are installing new "wind farms" all around Oklahoma now, helped by the generous state gov't that makes large payments to, and gives tax incentives to, "big wind." Meanwhile, everyone else that lives here gets to live with draconian cuts to schools, health care for elderly,  and other state budget items.  If all these handouts weren't here, would this still be taking pace?

When they were going to build the ones right here by the house, I thought at least they would use some local contractors for construction.  This would have been a benefit for an area that has been short on good work for some time.  Instead they brought in contractors and trucking outfits from other states.  

If some things were done differently, there would be more actual positives for the local area economy.  As it is, it seems like a bad idea, poorly executed, and rammed down everyone's throats. 

Years down the road, as efficiency grows, they may be more viable.  But by then, the older less efficient ones will cover the land, and our gov't will have already sold out any future taxing/revenue options.    

Long story short, I'd like to grease up one of those blades and shove it up all these politicians (dem and repub alike) A...  :)

 

Wouldn't waste any good grease on them!

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There is an attempt to put 300 to 350 Wind generators 10 miles off Fire Island, Long Island in the Atlantic Ocean.   20 to 27 feet of water with a sand sea floor and some what rapid currents and shifting bottom. 6 to 20+ foot waves, off shore winds from 5 to 60 mph are the norm. Nor Easters, Gales and occasional hurricanes bring waves to 30 to 40+ feet and winds 70 to 100 mph+. In between the site and us is a National Sea Shore classed as a U.N. Heritage site. It is also near 6 sites of DOD U.E.O..

Building in apparently no problem, what of maintenance? Routing stations for the power near multi million dollar beach front properties are a bit of a snag also. PSE&G said there will probably be a 1 to 3% increase of rates plus the added costs of construction and interest on their loan (we have a private utility company thanks to king Andrew Coumo)  WE pay the highst utility rates in the U.S.  So all of this is better than Fossil?  Please explain that to me missy.

Just got notice this month that my power company applied to the PUC for a rate increase. Mine will go up another 13%. Met-Ed in PA. THANK GOODNESS they shut down many coal units recently and got the CHEAPER natural gas units up and running. Oh, and I thought petroleum prices are down this year for the oil fired plants, too?!?

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Wind now beats coal and natural gas for cost, we only need natural gas for baseload backup. Coal will never make a comeback- It costs more to build a new coal plant than a natural gas plant, and wind is even cheaper. Coal fueled locomotives were scrapped over a half century ago because they couldn't respond quickly to load demands and needed too much maintenance. Coal fired power plants have the same problems and I'm surprised they've lasted as long as they have.

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52 minutes ago, TeamsterGrrrl said:

Wind now beats coal and natural gas for cost, we only need natural gas for baseload backup. Coal will never make a comeback- It costs more to build a new coal plant than a natural gas plant, and wind is even cheaper. Coal fueled locomotives were scrapped over a half century ago because they couldn't respond quickly to load demands and needed too much maintenance. Coal fired power plants have the same problems and I'm surprised they've lasted as long as they have.

I'm guessing a modern coal fired plant like the one the tree huggers stopped from being built in Highwood Montana right in the middle of a natural gas field is light years ahead of a 50 year old plant you speak of. I'm no coal plant expert but I know how fast technology moves so it only makes sense to me that they aren't these archaic dinosaurs you speak of. As for wind being cheap I'm not so sure that it's cheap and you'd have to cover every open spot in the country side with them to make wind a viable alternative and that's only IF the wind blows. 

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The problems we face today exist because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by the people who vote for a living.

The government can only "give" someone what they first take from another.

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Tell me if I'm wrong David but I thought I remembered hearing that one of e by products of the new clean fired coal power plant they were trying to get built in Highwood was diesel or kerosene. Am I remembering right or just dreaming?

The problems we face today exist because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by the people who vote for a living.

The government can only "give" someone what they first take from another.

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4 hours ago, david wild said:

Super critical coal fired power plant cannot be beat for clean cheap electric power.

And sadly the plant in Arkansas is probably the last the Feds will allow to be built.

"OPERTUNITY IS MISSED BY MOST PEOPLE BECAUSE IT IS DRESSED IN OVERALLS AND LOOKS LIKE WORK"  Thomas Edison

 “Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely, in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy shit, what a ride!’

P.T.CHESHIRE

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Here is the corrected facts for our off shore wind turbines from Newsday 2015

"The Obama administration has announced funding for the Fire Island offshore wind power project off the New York coastline. The administration has pledged up to $470 million for the project to bring  green power online.

The price tag for all this green power: a staggering $11.75 million per wind turbine. In terms of energy, the three hundred offshore wind turbines will cost $2.1 million per MW.

“Offshore wind offers a large, untapped energy resource that will create manufacturing, construction and supply chain jobs across the country and drive hundreds of thousands of dollars in local economy,” said  former Energy Secretary Ernest Moniz.

According to Windustry, a land based utility scale wind turbine cost from $1.3 million to $2.2 million per MW. Most “commercial-scale turbines installed today are 2 MW in size and cost roughly $3-$4 million installed.” "

 

Adds up to  $3,525,000,000.00 less the Federal $470,000,000 spread over a 10 year construction period. That  leaves rate payers in the hole for a mere  $3,055,000,000.00 without adding interest, inflation, cost over runs and storm damage.

Edited by 41chevy
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"OPERTUNITY IS MISSED BY MOST PEOPLE BECAUSE IT IS DRESSED IN OVERALLS AND LOOKS LIKE WORK"  Thomas Edison

 “Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely, in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy shit, what a ride!’

P.T.CHESHIRE

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2 hours ago, TeamsterGrrrl said:

No point in trying to argue with people that create their own "facts"...

In all fairness you never post any facts or links to the facts or news paper articles to your "facts" either. In most if not every post in this thread I made sure to point out that it was my opinion based on what I saw or what made sense to me. The fact still is wind power only works when there's wind. So during the doldrums of summer and the dead of winter when there normally is less wind but the demand is the highest a  wind farm doesn't work. To me it's a shame having all these natural resources in the US and we can't use them to help ourselves. Montana has a lot of coal in it as well as Wyoming. Could be cheaper, reliable power but the bunny huggers have more money and time in their hands to stop any progress but it's ok to continue mining the coal and sending it over seas where you know good and damn well they pollute to high heaven with out a care. As for natural gas fired plants, they could be an option but right now the owners of the gas wells are either capping them off until the price goes up or flaring them off rather than give the gas away. So cheap natural gas power isn't likely to happen. 

Edited by HeavyGunner
Damn autocorrect
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The problems we face today exist because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by the people who vote for a living.

The government can only "give" someone what they first take from another.

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Thanks to the end of coal mining the company that built the mining machines in town is closing next month. When things were good they employed around 1000 people. I made good money hauling out of there but all good things come to an end.

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Simple facts of why the Natural gas can't get to the new L.I. power plants.  NYSDEC, Federal EPA and the Army Corps of Engineers, NYC and the state of Connecticut. The floor of the L.I. Sound is a layer of sand over bedrock, the pipeline can not be buried as per Federal regulations, the sound is a major shipping lane so the required depth is non negotiable. The pipeline can't come through NYC because it can not run on or under the bridges or the navigable waters beneath them and last  Connecticut will not allow the pipeline due to economic, environmental and public safety concerns. The ban goes back to 2007 court ruling.

 

http://www.law360.com/articles/33030/judge-stops-long-island-sound-gas-pipeline

 

"OPERTUNITY IS MISSED BY MOST PEOPLE BECAUSE IT IS DRESSED IN OVERALLS AND LOOKS LIKE WORK"  Thomas Edison

 “Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely, in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy shit, what a ride!’

P.T.CHESHIRE

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