Hot Dogs, Can't Run Stay on the Porch

[AZB755V8]

I found a NEW inline E9 pump and the topic strayed to Hot Dogging Macks and such. So this topic is about getting the most out of what you got, not just keeping the old dog barely alive. To start I Love BIG Power, it comes at a price but with these Old Macks is so EZ to Have. Not for everyday working truck modifications but for hobby trucks and occasional outings to take the old mechanical dog on a "Run". This topic will not be for all but will be useful information all the same.

I finally got some space and time to pull out the Tank Quad Turbo set-up that I got some time ago. In preparation for this I was looking for inline E9 injector pumps. 

To start the NEW E9 Pump was damaged in shipment. Fed-Ex Said that claim was to be files by the shipper. Pump came from Italy so not hoping for a lot. It has to go to the pump shop for repairs so.... Lets get it Turned-up. Thinking 20% on fuel and 20% on the governor. This will be a Hot road engine maybe going in a MH Ultraliner that is out beside the shop, only has 118,000 original Km on the ticker.

Along with that I got a pump or two that I got over the years to put on the calibration machine just to see where things are at. (2) 12mm, 13mm & 14mm shown.

Power start with the pump and you got to know where things are at to begin with.

Now the Tank Engine set-up. Mocking this up today on more than likely the engine that will be rebuilt to handle the power output that this set-up will deliver with a 14mm pump and a little "Secret" stuff. No shifting required with this set-up, as manual trans do not shift well over 2500RPM's. Trans is the bullet proof cable shifted, no electronics, Allison HT750CR Automatic. There were only a very few E9's with Automatics orders only by the US Military and I believe they were HT740 Allison's.

Lets talk, Hot Rod Stuff, From the other post 300bar injector pop-off is higher than Mack spec but it works better for fuel atomization it is 50bar higher than Mack spec. About every 25bar the engine timing needs advances 1 degree, 2 degrees for 50bar.  

[tjc transport]

that pump damage really really stinks. good thing you have spare parts to fix it!

i am looking forward to seeing more of this excellent build as you progress with it. 

[mrsmackpaul]

This will be interesting 

[D-Day]

thanks for continuing the original post its great to learn more about these things looking forward to the build

[Vladislav]

Not a big issue with those top threads damaged since the delivery valve holders are easy to swap. I just recieved the socket to drive them off today. Going to free up a plunger in Bosch pump on DM truck I bought last week. The holders are tight torqued since there's lapped surface at their bottom side to fit against the delivery valve seats. Not a gasket as some older pumps had or copper washers I once swapped in smaller Bosch pump on my Mercedes OM606 engine. Also I had been to a diesel parts shop the other weekend and saw those holders new aftermarket. They're nearly $4 apiece and looked good. I was going to grab a couple just for spares but deeper investigation showed the outer thread was of larger OD. I could remachine them to fit but saw no sence since I had a complete spare pump for parts. Honestly I have big attraction to chrome plate a set of those holders together with a few other small pieces of the pump.

[Vladislav]

16 hours ago, AZB755V8 said:

Lets talk, Hot Rod Stuff, From the other post 300bar injector pop-off is higher than Mack spec but it works better for fuel atomization it is 50bar higher than Mack spec. About every 25bar the engine timing needs advances 1 degree, 2 degrees for 50bar.  

Thanks for pointing the pressure change timing advance. Good thing there's known prcatice in doing that. I knew the matter but didn't know the exact aproach. Also I didn't keep in mind the E9 injection pressure. Suspected it was a 130 bar ballpark so the 300 figure appeared doubtful. 50 bar increase doesn't seem really extremal and adding 2 degrees to the injection advance would smooth the things up I belive.

A side question - what are you going to do with a "turbo base" - a section of the stock exhaust manifold the turbo attaches to? I see the tank setup has its original part there and you removed the stock piece. The reason I ask (may be interested to someone) is Renault engine has the turbo mounted backwards. You have intake at the right and exhaust at the left. Once I first noted that I thought the base was just tured over but when I got the parts in my hands I found that it was a different part and you need one off a Mack to correctly fit the engine in a Mack. No strong need for that at the moment and a tip on where to look for instead of the actual item would either work for me.

[AZB755V8]

The 3 pumps are ready to go to the pump shop this week along with 3 sets of injectors to get cleaned and pop-off pressures set. One stock set is getting military nozzles, one set already had them. They were in the tank turbo mockup engine and the V-Pump was turned up to Max. The third set is for competition only and duel feed units capable of 2500hp plus. These should be fine but just want the spray patters checked. They will be used in this Quad Turbo engine along with the 14mm pump.

The damaged P-pump valve holders will be replaces with Bosch parts. Aftermarket ones are about $30 each but I am not thrilled on them. I do have the Socket to remove them as well but it is off to the pump shop anyway for recalibration.

 

Vlad, If you look on the pallet the four head manifolds are laying there. Those are the only Exhaust manifolds I got with this engine the other pieces were gone. I have one complete spare set of E9 manifolds that I am saving for the other trucks that I have. Manifolds are hard to come by in good shape. Take a photo of your turbo mounting section. From your full engine photo the turbo is off to the right side a lot. Knowing that it is opposite a Mack application it may be the same part or easy to modify, it would mount on the bellhousing in the same location.

It was a rare rainy day here, a prefect day to go to the shop and get a little more mocked up.

Cool tank manifolds, the right side is a three piece unit. The reason is exhaust cylinder pulsation. What that means is the small turbos are split or divided housing units The way they work best is to have an even left/right exhaust pulse for the corresponding cylinders. Mack engineering did their homework, true Factory Hot Dog Stuff. The left side is a two piece unit that is split as well just not the same as the right. Not the single log manifold, as seen on the pallet, that is on all E9's in truck use. Heat shielding that I will be reusing are stainless honeycomb military spec.

 

Right side manifold, have some work to get the large turbo to fit with the parts I have. It has to be moved back a few inches and up a few as well. The electric engine brakes is going by-by, to much exhaust restriction.

 

Right side three piece manifold. Got the Large turbo almost in the right location for now. It is a open entry T6 mount. Actually these turbos are very close in size the the single turbo used on the E9-500.

 

 

 

 

 

[fjh]

10 hours ago, AZB755V8 said:

The 3 pumps are ready to go to the pump shop this week along with 3 sets of injectors to get cleaned and pop-off pressures set. One stock set is getting military nozzles, one set already had them. They were in the tank turbo mockup engine and the V-Pump was turned up to Max. The third set is for competition only and duel feed units capable of 2500hp plus. These should be fine but just want the spray patters checked. They will be used in this Quad Turbo engine along with the 14mm pump.

The damaged P-pump valve holders will be replaces with Bosch parts. Aftermarket ones are about $30 each but I am not thrilled on them. I do have the Socket to remove them as well but it is off to the pump shop anyway for recalibration.

 

Vlad, If you look on the pallet the four head manifolds are laying there. Those are the only Exhaust manifolds I got with this engine the other pieces were gone. I have one complete spare set of E9 manifolds that I am saving for the other trucks that I have. Manifolds are hard to come by in good shape. Take a photo of your turbo mounting section. From your full engine photo the turbo is off to the right side a lot. Knowing that it is opposite a Mack application it may be the same part or easy to modify, it would mount on the bellhousing in the same location.

It was a rare rainy day here, a prefect day to go to the shop and get a little more mocked up.

Cool tank manifolds, the right side is a three piece unit. The reason is exhaust cylinder pulsation. What that means is the small turbos are split or divided housing units The way they work best is to have an even left/right exhaust pulse for the corresponding cylinders. Mack engineering did their homework, true Factory Hot Dog Stuff. The left side is a two piece unit that is split as well just not the same as the right. Not the single log manifold, as seen on the pallet, that is on all E9's in truck use. Heat shielding that I will be reusing are stainless honeycomb military spec.

 

Right side manifold, have some work to get the large turbo to fit with the parts I have. It has to be moved back a few inches and up a few as well. The electric engine brakes is going by-by, to much exhaust restriction.

 

Right side three piece manifold. Got the Large turbo almost in the right location for now. It is a open entry T6 mount. Actually these turbos are very close in size the the single turbo used on the E9-500.

 

 

 

 

 

Going to be interesting to see just how much boost this engine will put out! Also how much frame alteration thatd going to have to be done to jam that in the vehicle!

[AZB755V8]

3 hours ago, fjh said:

Going to be interesting to see just how much boost this engine will put out! Also how much frame alteration thatd going to have to be done to jam that in the vehicle!

The boost will be there. The Turbo technology since these engines were built has come light years ahead. The Garrett turbos on the E9's normally had boost in the low 20psi and narrow RPM range. Todays turbos will make 65-70psi and a broad RPM range.

The Single Turbo on the Superliner made 60psi and spooled up at 1800-3500rpm's then just starts to fall off up to 4000rpm with the old Holeset. Now with a new Borg Warner SE500-91 it is 65-70psi, gauge needle bounces a lot. 1200-4000rpm range. Think I now need liquid filled pressure gauge?

Look close on the hood to see the Superman E9-1200. That is NO Joke and the power is to the ground. The flywheel HP is 1500 from the Mack engineers specs/recipe that it was built to. Pump was done at Antrim Diesel years ago.

This is with air to air into a water to air intercooler. To the right that is a 91mm Holset T5 that is long gone, number 8 cylinder dropped and ate a valve seat in Cleveland, went though the turbo, and kept on rolling into Phoenix 2000 mile later on 7 cylinders still passing just about anything on the road. Of course there was a "little" extra smoke form the stacks. Heard about it a few times on the CB, I just said give me five mile and you will never known I was there.

The boost that I will be OK with is 120psi for the Tank engine project. The engine will spin at least 1000rpm over the 2500/2600rpm military governor so stock turbos may not get it done before running out of air. 

The truck this is going in is a MH Ultraliner for a few reasons. The engine will be moved back about 2 feet to where the frame narrows. Engine will still be under the cab. The reason is the turbos will hang down on the outside of the frame rails and not interfere with the front tires or steering. I will have to angle out the turbos to get the clearance with some custom wedges between heads and manifolds. No frame alterations except making it a single axel from the Canadian spread tandem it is now.

[Vladislav]

2 hours ago, AZB755V8 said:

The truck this is going in is a MH Ultraliner for a few reasons. The engine will be moved back about 2 feet to where the frame narrows. Engine will still be under the cab. The reason is the turbos will hang down on the outside of the frame rails and not interfere with the front tires or steering. I will have to angle out the turbos to get the clearance with some custom wedges between heads and manifolds. No frame alterations except making it a single axel from the Canadian spread tandem it is now.

Very interesting plan. Weight distribution will be sufficiently improved I suppose. Good luck on the build up.

[Vladislav]

18 hours ago, AZB755V8 said:

Vlad, If you look on the pallet the four head manifolds are laying there. Those are the only Exhaust manifolds I got with this engine the other pieces were gone. I have one complete spare set of E9 manifolds that I am saving for the other trucks that I have. Manifolds are hard to come by in good shape. Take a photo of your turbo mounting section. From your full engine photo the turbo is off to the right side a lot. Knowing that it is opposite a Mack application it may be the same part or easy to modify, it would mount on the bellhousing in the same location.

 

Unfortunately no. That turbo base is asymmetrical in 3 direction. Has offset to a side and to the rear with turbo flange biased. So ways are a custom weld new part or to find a used one off a Mack. I will add pics of the parts taken off the engine. Was going to but found out I forgot to take them off my phone.

What kind of intercoolers that tank setup utilizes? Are they water cooled or air ventilated by a tip turbine or other way?

[AZB755V8]

4 hours ago, Vladislav said:

Unfortunately no. That turbo base is asymmetrical in 3 direction. Has offset to a side and to the rear with turbo flange biased. So ways are a custom weld new part or to find a used one off a Mack. I will add pics of the parts taken off the engine. Was going to but found out I forgot to take them off my phone.

What kind of intercoolers that tank setup utilizes? Are they water cooled or air ventilated by a tip turbine or other way?

Well I thought I had one good spare set of manifolds/turbo mount. I was getting the part number off the spare casting for Vlad and....

HO...CRACK... Did not notice them them before sandblasting & Ceramic Coating.

Not one but two that go all the way though to the inside surfaces. Crappy Cracks... well have to start looking for a spare now along with Vlad.

 

This was the liquid to air intercooler on the Superliner. It was connected to the air to air intercooler on one side and to the engine on the other.

It worked good for about 45 seconds then the water was almost boiling using a 20 gallon tank. 2 water inlets and outlets 1.25" Diameter. Flowed 60 gallons a minute.

Intercooler tank that was in the chain locker behind the cab. It is a 20 Gallon tank with the pumps inside.

The set-up is off the truck now. Just no need for it on a road truck with just 45 seconds of usefulness before boiling the water. Truck pulling or Drag racing it would be Great. A lesson learned. The tank engine will have four liquid to air intercoolers and a 100 gallon fuel tank converted to by the water reservoir. 

[Vladislav]

That tank setup is indeed an interesting set of pieces to tinker with. A wide field to apply engeneering of different kinds. Wonder what the tanks used to cool off the intercoolers? Did they have a large water tank too? Or a radiator to cool the water as some vehicles utilizes?

That crack in the base sucks. I have no idea on how the part is avalible from Mack and how costy but one of my thoughts is on custom casting. Not really difficult shape to reproduce on my mind and too possibly you could play with properties of the alloy to improve the performance. I doubt Mack used space technologies for a road truck engine part.

Another simple (but no doubt poor) idea is weld the crack. I had a funny case when I once drove in to a muffler making shop for some reason and found out they offered exhaust manifold welds. I got surprized and asked a guy on could they fix a cast iron part. He looked under the hood and said no problem just 500 Rubles (nearly $20 those days). I said Ok and was going to look on what he would do. The guy came back with a wire welder and applied a 5 cm of seam. Said that's all done. To my honest question of would that work (???) he answered they gave 12 month guarantee. I gave him 500 and went in doubts. Funny thing the weld got cracked after a year and two weeks... What really surprized me than was that sure really poor fix worked for that long on a daily running vehicle with an engine which manifolds had tendency to crack

[brettj3876]

On 7/24/2021 at 11:34 PM, AZB755V8 said:

I found a NEW inline E9 pump and the topic strayed to Hot Dogging Macks and such. So this topic is about getting the most out of what you got, not just keeping the old dog barely alive. To start I Love BIG Power, it comes at a price but with these Old Macks is so EZ to Have. Not for everyday working truck modifications but for hobby trucks and occasional outings to take the old mechanical dog on a "Run". This topic will not be for all but will be useful information all the same.

I finally got some space and time to pull out the Tank Quad Turbo set-up that I got some time ago. In preparation for this I was looking for inline E9 injector pumps. 

To start the NEW E9 Pump was damaged in shipment. Fed-Ex Said that claim was to be files by the shipper. Pump came from Italy so not hoping for a lot. It has to go to the pump shop for repairs so.... Lets get it Turned-up. Thinking 20% on fuel and 20% on the governor. This will be a Hot road engine maybe going in a MH Ultraliner that is out beside the shop, only has 118,000 original Km on the ticker.

Along with that I got a pump or two that I got over the years to put on the calibration machine just to see where things are at. (2) 12mm, 13mm & 14mm shown.

Power start with the pump and you got to know where things are at to begin with.

Now the Tank Engine set-up. Mocking this up today on more than likely the engine that will be rebuilt to handle the power output that this set-up will deliver with a 14mm pump and a little "Secret" stuff. No shifting required with this set-up, as manual trans do not shift well over 2500RPM's. Trans is the bullet proof cable shifted, no electronics, Allison HT750CR Automatic. There were only a very few E9's with Automatics orders only by the US Military and I believe they were HT740 Allison's.

Lets talk, Hot Rod Stuff, From the other post 300bar injector pop-off is higher than Mack spec but it works better for fuel atomization it is 50bar higher than Mack spec. About every 25bar the engine timing needs advances 1 degree, 2 degrees for 50bar.  

https://youtube.com/shorts/guoqVaulZVk?feature=share

Fully mechanical pump on the 93. 12mm pump maxed out as far it can go. I know it's still a 12mm but the pump guy changed to a diff barrel/plungers

 

The link to YouTube should work. Blacker than black Lol. Prob gonna need 78 or 80mm turbo. The S475 might be too little now

[brettj3876]

Might have to play with her a bit. Going on the 1st ride tomorrow picking up a whopping 7000 LBS. Timing set conservative at 18°

[AZB755V8]

22 hours ago, brettj3876 said:

https://youtube.com/shorts/guoqVaulZVk?feature=share

Fully mechanical pump on the 93. 12mm pump maxed out as far it can go.

Just a note, cracking the throttle on this E-9's does more harm that good. Any diesel will blow black when the puff limiter is disconnected. True test is rolling on the fuel under load. The idea is to have minimal smoke and increase in power. I can sure put on a show (rolling coal) and attract usually the wrong attention. Remember there are big fines for emissions violations in most states. That said you have ways to go to get the set-up right.

Yes the turbo is to small for the amount of fuel, if pump is turned up all the way, nozzles are to small, timing is very critical, governor needs work, fuel return valve needs changed, etc. along with other things.

BIG Note: With more power more heat, valve seats fall out and destroy the head, piston, liner, turbo, expensive fix! How do I know!  About $6000 in parts and down 6 weeks if I did not have the parts and do the work in my shop. Still was a 20 hour fix. Mack Dealer did not have a Tech that EVER worked on an E9. Not doing it right for some FUN.. but I learned real quick..

Have fun but know that changing one thing means changing a lot of things to get it to work properly and with a lot of left foot moderation (REAL Important) to not break other expensive things. Have a spare engine, clutch, driveshafts, etc. for parts...👍

 

[brettj3876]

7 hours ago, AZB755V8 said:

Just a note, cracking the throttle on this E-9's does more harm that good. Any diesel will blow black when the puff limiter is disconnected. True test is rolling on the fuel under load. The idea is to have minimal smoke and increase in power. I can sure put on a show (rolling coal) and attract usually the wrong attention. Remember there are big fines for emissions violations in most states. That said you have ways to go to get the set-up right.

Yes the turbo is to small for the amount of fuel, if pump is turned up all the way, nozzles are to small, timing is very critical, governor needs work, fuel return valve needs changed, etc. along with other things.

BIG Note: With more power more heat, valve seats fall out and destroy the head, piston, liner, turbo, expensive fix! How do I know!  About $6000 in parts and down 6 weeks if I did not have the parts and do the work in my shop. Still was a 20 hour fix. Mack Dealer did not have a Tech that EVER worked on an E9. Not doing it right for some FUN.. but I learned real quick..

Have fun but know that changing one thing means changing a lot of things to get it to work properly and with a lot of left foot moderation (REAL Important) to not break other expensive things. Have a spare engine, clutch, driveshafts, etc. for parts...👍

 

Took her for a ride today. Just easing in into it hardly smokes at all. Just a light haze of smoke at 1600 on a pull. About 875ish just a hair under 900 on the pyro. No aneroid on the pump but that'll probably end up going back on. I know yours is a play truck (from what i read right?) This will end up getting a 1.45 78 or 80 since its a work truck

 

15.3 pistons in it now. Came with the 16.9s as a 350

Edited September 20, 2021 by brettj3876

[AZB755V8]

Yes, the stuff I have is for play and show. To have modified stuff to make a living is rough these days. Speed limit is still 65 MPH on the interstates. Tickets are traceable though out the states and expensive to. It is fun though pulling a grade with a load as if on the level. Passing everything going up the mountains.

Are you talking about an E7 or E9 with your project? An 80mm is on the big side with a 1.45 A/R housing for an E7. Bottom end torque will be poor due to keeping it spooling it up and EGT will be high. Depends on turbine size though. 

The lower compression will help with more boost for sure. I cut my heads around the valves to get that with better air flow not the pistons

Edited September 20, 2021 by AZB755V8
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[mrsmackpaul]

I dont think most people realize (myself included) just how much of fine balancing act it is to have a diesel running right 

 

If it was simple to get a lot of reliable power out of a motor the manufacturers would do it

 

Having said that, this is still interesting to me

 

Paul

[AZB755V8]

5 hours ago, mrsmackpaul said:

I dont think most people realize (myself included) just how much of fine balancing act it is to have a diesel running right 

A good reliable engine, diesel or gas, is a Great thing. The manufactures spend a lot of time and money to make it so. Then add in the Gov Reg's for fuel economy and emissions, etc. It is a true balancing act and computers have done a lot for that. If more power was needed the manufactures would move in that direction. Running Right has a different meaning to Guys that what more but it is a fine line to get it right just ask anyone that Races. In all cased durability goes down and more maintenance is needed to keep it all running.

For cars 650-850hp is not uncommon these days with computer controls. Who needs that power... well no one really but there is a market for it so it is available. There is a Tesla 1000hp and insane torque electric Class 8 truck in the works, is it really needed?