E7 350hp to 500hp that will live

[mackdaddytruckfixer]

Im looking for a clear path to build a E7 350hp mechanical engine to 500hp and as much tq as I can get. The engine must be able to live 500k miles and not need someone to babysit Pyro. Thx guys

[mrsmackpaul]

Dunno if your gunna find a "clear path" to 500 hp that you don't have to watch the pyro

I was taught that I need to watch the pyro on a standard motor when really pulling hard,  so on a motor that is adjusted right up for big hp and torque I think it will always be part of driving  it if you want it to last 

A lot will depend on the weight your shifting 

If it is only the 80,000 pounds that are common in the U.S. then watching the pyro probably isn't as critical as if your pulling 200,000 lbs plus on road trains in Australia or heavy haulage

Most people will say, don't fiddle with what you don't understand as this can ruin a motor pretty quick

Also the Maxitorque box can handle huge amounts of torque but they have their limits as well 

Here is a link that might be helpful

 

Remember you can't Have your cake and eat it 

Huge amounts of torque and hp will come at the cost of reliability, it's a balancing act 

Enjoy the ride

 

Paul

[Joey Mack]

Its 11 liters.. it wont live...  

[Geoff Weeks]

14L mechanical couldn't do that. 11L can't either. It wasn't until electronic controls came out did you see 12.7L come close. 

Why? what are you trying to do? 

realistic expectations are a must.

[The Rubber Duck 006]

I would listen to JoJo and Paul. Also if you want horse right out the gate you'd be better off going with a 14.0L Detroit 60s series. 515hp from the Factory and it can handle more with a little upgrading. 

[Brocky]

My 1976 Brockway with a 290 Cummins (13 speed) that had a 335 pump installed with a "Touch of Dutch" you had to watch the pyrometer very close.. Granted it would pull, but lots of the time on a hill you had to drop a 1/2 a gear to keep it cool. 

[880joe]

I would think it's doable they made electronic e7's that were 454 with the inline pump and they lived a million miles. I wouldn't think 10 percent more would be that critical if it was done right 

[mackdaddytruckfixer]

7 hours ago, Geoff Weeks said:

14L mechanical couldn't do that. 11L can't either. It wasn't until electronic controls came out did you see 12.7L come close. 

Why? what are you trying to do? 

realistic expectations are a must.

Im doing regional end dump.  Im starting to think about fitting a 3406C. I'd like to do a E9 but parts availability isn't great. Might just go to another brand. Ive always owned Macks.

[mackdaddytruckfixer]

4 hours ago, 880joe said:

I would think it's doable they made electronic e7's that were 454 with the inline pump and they lived a million miles. I wouldn't think 10 percent more would be that critical if it was done right 

That's what I was thinking to

[mackdaddytruckfixer]

4 hours ago, 880joe said:

I would think it's doable they made electronic e7's that were 454 with the inline pump and they lived a million miles. I wouldn't think 10 percent more would be that critical if it was done right 

I was thinking the same thing. Its going to be a total out of frame is just want a clear plan before I start. Was going to do full tilt exhaust manifold bigger turbo injectors ect. 

[mackdaddytruckfixer]

8 hours ago, mrsmackpaul said:

Dunno if your gunna find a "clear path" to 500 hp that you don't have to watch the pyro

I was taught that I need to watch the pyro on a standard motor when really pulling hard,  so on a motor that is adjusted right up for big hp and torque I think it will always be part of driving  it if you want it to last 

A lot will depend on the weight your shifting 

If it is only the 80,000 pounds that are common in the U.S. then watching the pyro probably isn't as critical as if your pulling 200,000 lbs plus on road trains in Australia or heavy haulage

Most people will say, don't fiddle with what you don't understand as this can ruin a motor pretty quick

Also the Maxitorque box can handle huge amounts of torque but they have their limits as well 

Here is a link that might be helpful

 

Remember you can't Have your cake and eat it 

Huge amounts of torque and hp will come at the cost of reliability, it's a balancing act 

Enjoy the ride

 

Paul

Im not asking the engine to climb the Rockies. Not asking for engine to make a million miles. Worst MT it will see in 77 or 68 wv va

[mackdaddytruckfixer]

6 hours ago, The Rubber Duck 006 said:

I would listen to JoJo and Paul. Also if you want horse right out the gate you'd be better off going with a 14.0L Detroit 60s series. 515hp from the Factory and it can handle more with a little upgrading. 

I think you may be right saddly

[mackdaddytruckfixer]

8 hours ago, mrsmackpaul said:

Dunno if your gunna find a "clear path" to 500 hp that you don't have to watch the pyro

I was taught that I need to watch the pyro on a standard motor when really pulling hard,  so on a motor that is adjusted right up for big hp and torque I think it will always be part of driving  it if you want it to last 

A lot will depend on the weight your shifting 

If it is only the 80,000 pounds that are common in the U.S. then watching the pyro probably isn't as critical as if your pulling 200,000 lbs plus on road trains in Australia or heavy haulage

Most people will say, don't fiddle with what you don't understand as this can ruin a motor pretty quick

Also the Maxitorque box can handle huge amounts of torque but they have their limits as well 

Here is a link that might be helpful

 

Remember you can't Have your cake and eat it 

Huge amounts of torque and hp will come at the cost of reliability, it's a balancing act 

Enjoy the ride

 

Paul

My max will be 80,000 sometimes 88,000. Worst mountains would be fancy gap and sandstone. 

[mackdaddytruckfixer]

8 hours ago, Geoff Weeks said:

14L mechanical couldn't do that. 11L can't either. It wasn't until electronic controls came out did you see 12.7L come close. 

Why? what are you trying to do? 

realistic expectations are a must.

 

8 hours ago, Geoff Weeks said:

14L mechanical couldn't do that. 11L can't either. It wasn't until electronic controls came out did you see 12.7L come close. 

Why? what are you trying to do? 

realistic expectations are a must.

E7 they made a 454 i was thinking build the same spec +10%. Willing to spend $$ like ceramic coating pistons after market turbo , over sized after cooler and full tilt exhaust manifold witch flows 20% more

[mackdaddytruckfixer]

8 hours ago, mrsmackpaul said:

Dunno if your gunna find a "clear path" to 500 hp that you don't have to watch the pyro

I was taught that I need to watch the pyro on a standard motor when really pulling hard,  so on a motor that is adjusted right up for big hp and torque I think it will always be part of driving  it if you want it to last 

A lot will depend on the weight your shifting 

If it is only the 80,000 pounds that are common in the U.S. then watching the pyro probably isn't as critical as if your pulling 200,000 lbs plus on road trains in Australia or heavy haulage

Most people will say, don't fiddle with what you don't understand as this can ruin a motor pretty quick

Also the Maxitorque box can handle huge amounts of torque but they have their limits as well 

Here is a link that might be helpful

 

Remember you can't Have your cake and eat it 

Huge amounts of torque and hp will come at the cost of reliability, it's a balancing act 

Enjoy the ride

 

Paul

Thanks Paul there's allot of great information in that post. I think this can be done reliably 

[mrsmackpaul]

3 hours ago, mackdaddytruckfixer said:

Im doing regional end dump.  Im starting to think about fitting a 3406C. I'd like to do a E9 but parts availability isn't great. Might just go to another brand. Ive always owned Macks.

E9 kits are still advertised in Australia so I'm guessing with a little research they should be doable in the state's 

 

Paul 

[Joey Mack]

I guess if you drive it with respect it may live.  Even though i was sceptical, Mack did make the 460 XT which was rated at 485 HP. And somewhere around 2000 lbft of torque. The drive line needed to be beefed up for that. But if you are the only driver, it may live.  

[880joe]

I have some used full tilt manifolds and a new switch blade turbo that I never installed and I might have some bigger injectors If you decide to go that route. Or I also have a low mileage CL with an E9 I have been thinking about selling 

[The Rubber Duck 006]

3 hours ago, mackdaddytruckfixer said:

I think you may be right saddly

I can tell you from Experience The 14L 60 Series Detroit with The Right transmission and rear gearing behind it will Pull Sandstone Like a Champ at those Weights and Still git Good Fuel Mileage. I used to Haul Lumber down to Blue Ridge Lumber in Bells Valley Virginia. 

[BottleHauler84]

5 hours ago, mackdaddytruckfixer said:

Im doing regional end dump.  Im starting to think about fitting a 3406C. I'd like to do a E9 but parts availability isn't great. Might just go to another brand. Ive always owned Macks.

If you're thinking of doing a swap like that for reliability and power, a 3406E/C15 is about the best swap there is. Harnesses are readily available from Kustom Truck in Coos Bay, Oregon.  

 

We've done several ISX, Paccar and other mechanical engine swaps for the 3406E/C15 conversion and the results are great. I guess it just depends on what kind of money you're looking to spend.  

[Geoff Weeks]

There is a huge difference between what can be done with a mechanical engine and what can be done with electronics. You said you want a mechanical controlled engine, that limits what can be safely made in terms of power.

At best mechanical can only have a speed based timing. That alone limits what can be done. Same on boost control. it would be a fixed map.

3 hours ago, Joey Mack said:

I guess if you drive it with respect it may live.  Even though i was sceptical, Mack did make the 460 XT which was rated at 485 HP. And somewhere around 2000 lbft of torque. The drive line needed to be beefed up for that. But if you are the only driver, it may live.  

If he wants that kind of power, then start with that powerplant. The hard work has been done, but there again it is not mechanical.  Adding 10% to that would likely hold together, but may not. It wouldn't be the 1st powerplant that was discontinued/down rated after they came out when it was found they couldn't stay together long term.

I stand by the comment that 11L mechanical engine @500 hp is not realistic, esp with your other requirements, of 500k to overhaul, and not being "babysat".

The only fully mechanical truck engine to break 500 hp from the factory was the K-19 Cummins AFAIK. a 19L engine. Many did so when electronic controls and the items that are controlled were developed.

All this to pull a "regional end dump" around? I pulled double your weight and much more wind resistance with ~430 hp.

If you want an engine of any size that you can mash the go pedal and not watch the gauges, and I'm not sure there are any that fit that requirement, then it will a stock engine. 

drop in a 460 and play with that. 

[BottleHauler84]

44 minutes ago, Geoff Weeks said:

The only fully mechanical truck engine to break 500 hp from the factory was the K-19 Cummins AFAIK. a 19L engine.

The only other factory mechanical engines in truck on-road applications i can think of with a factory hp rating of 500 or more is a Caterpillar 3408DTI  and of course the E9 500.

Nowadays I would never go from a mechanical to mechanical or electronic to mechanical as a swap. The pre emission electronic engines are so much more efficient and the torque range is alot better. Mid 90s to early 2000s 12.7/ 14L 60 series and 3406E/c15 are the only way id go on any swap Nowadays. 

 

[Geoff Weeks]

I was thinking inline 6 but yes there were others that broke the 500 hp barrier. I was incomplete in that statement.

With the 3 "requirements" of 500hp, mechanical, and "bullet proof" remove any 2 and the 3rd is do-able. Remove only one and it is in the range of possibility. all three together and I don't see it happening. 

Edited 3 hours ago by Geoff Weeks

[BottleHauler84]

9 minutes ago, Geoff Weeks said:

I was thinking inline 6 but yes there were others that broke the 500 hp barrier. I was incomplete in that statement.

With the 3 "requirements" of 500hp, mechanical, and "bullet proof" remove any 2 and the 3rd is do-able. Remove only one and it is in the range of possibility. all three together and I don't see it happening. 

Remember the days of 300,000-400,000 mile rod and main roll ins on mechanical BigCams and 3406 A and B models? I do and I don't miss it.

On a properly tuned electronic engine its nothing to do 800,000 to 1 million plus with original bearings. Hard to beat that I say.

[Geoff Weeks]

early days of the Big Cams and 3406 A and B sure, they need bearing rolls. later they were good for 1m or more if cared for. I have a 3406B in my Marmon with over 750K on the bottom end. Overhauled a NT88 at 1.4m and 750K on the bottom end which could have gone much longer on the bearings. Oils have got much better. 

Big Cam 3 oiling made a huge difference over that of the 1 and 2.