dieselpowerstroke Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 Recently bought a 2006 Mack CXN with the ASET AC350, Allison auto. 265k miles. Developed a coolant pushing issue first. Was told to do the single coolant tank update. Havent done that yet. Found some safety recalls needing done, had the local dealer do the headlight switch and harness update, and the fuel injection lines as free safety recalls. They called me a few days later, saying when we removed the injection lines, 4 of the 6 injection nozzles cracked. We usually have these issues doing the lines. If they would have told me that, i would have said dont do the recall. Too late now. So they want to put 6 nozzles in and charge me $2500 because the recall only pays the $800 worth of lines and 3 hours labor. Ob a saftey recall, if anything breaks, Mack will not cover it. Again, wish they had told me that beforehand. Then another few days they call me again, saying the injector sleeve in number 4 is leaking coolant alightly, this should be the coolant pushing concern. Okay. How much to install a new sleeve? They tell me on that engine you cant replace sleeves, you have to install a reman head. And when they do that, he says they know the liner protrusion will be too high and they usually cant cut the counterbores enough to get back into spec, so that means we would need a reman engine. Now wait a minute! That spiraled out of control in a hurry! Is that correct info? You cant replace sleeves separate and cant make the liners sit right after pulling the head?? There is no way we are putting that money in an 06. Very nice truck but they also told me the EGR cooler is discontinued from mack and the front aluminum water pump housing cover is discontinued. So i have a nice low mileage boat anchor with diminishing dealer support? Anyone knowledgable that could help me with thoughts on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 Wow wish I had something encouraging to say.😩. Terry 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeH Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 @Joey Mack is the resident expert here on ETECHs and AI/AC rebuildING. Where are you located? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieselpowerstroke Posted February 8 Author Share Posted February 8 We are in northwest Ohio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 ok... too much to absorb.. stop them, and pull the truck home.. the injector cups on those engines dont crack. they are replaceable, but not by them.. never mind that right now.. drain the coolant down till its below the thermostat. remove the water pump belt, and bypass or cap off the air compressor coolant lines. then put a short length of stick hose straight up on the thermostat housing, and pour your coolant in the hose so its a couple inches from the top .so you can see it.. start the engine and watch it.. do it with the engine cold so you can have a lot of time to watch.. you can remove the thermostat for this test if you want too. if it perculates then you likely have a head gasket leak.. I dont see where you said coolant in the oil.. is that true? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieselpowerstroke Posted February 8 Author Share Posted February 8 Oil is black, doesnt seem to have coolant in the oil. Just pressurizes and pushes coolant when driving. Never would idling in the lot. New 16lb cap and it still blows it out around the cap and fills the overflow. When i get the truck back i will do the test you suggest. Thank you for that procedure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieselpowerstroke Posted February 9 Author Share Posted February 9 To finish the story, dealer calls back later the same day and says number 3 sleeve is leaking worse, they had pressure on the cooling system to check that. I said theres no way we are doing both reman heads or even chancing needing a reman engine. He says i understand. I think your best bet is for us to return the new injectors and reinstall the old injectors, and i think we can get the new lines to seal with some orings to the point that they will only seep oil, not really leak much. I said yes, thats what i wanted you to do in the first place! And now i havent heard a word out of them in a week. They have had my truck for three weeks now. So frustrating and the dealer is trying to take us to the cleaners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 there arent any o-rings on the fuel lines.. the leaking sleeve is possible, which means they dropped the oil pan and pressurized the cooling system and looked up at the bottom of the liners for droplets. did they?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieselpowerstroke Posted February 9 Author Share Posted February 9 No, by sleeve i meant injector cup. Pardon my incorrect terminology there. They were telling me the cups were leaking coolant. If they are correct, that would allow combustion pressure into the cooling system if the injector sealing washer let it leak past, correct? But that theres no replacing them because they are machine fit into a reman head. I have never heard of that in my wrenching career. And yes, the lines just have bubble flares i believe. He was saying they could use orings to help seal them. So it seems they are willing to hillbilly my new injector lines to make them seal to the cracked nozzles. Like, really? But also he said afterwards, they would just slobber oil slightly down the side of the head and block worst case, but they wouldnt leak fuel. Im so confused. And i think they want me confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 I have been able to re-use those injector lines. I take a small piece of 320 emery cloth in my finger tips and rotate the ends of the lines until the impression is all but gone. theres been many times where all 6 stayed sealed.. NO o-rings or sealant is used,, EVER... they dont leak oil, if they did you will have a bigger issue.. Buddy, I dont like to pick on mechanics, but I get the impression they dont know Mack engines.. I suggest you search out some other posts on here related to your issue, and read them.. with respect, Jojo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark T Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 43 minutes ago, Joey Mack said: I have been able to re-use those injector lines. I take a small piece of 320 emery cloth in my finger tips and rotate the ends of the lines until the impression is all but gone. theres been many times where all 6 stayed sealed.. NO o-rings or sealant is used,, EVER... they dont leak oil, if they did you will have a bigger issue.. Buddy, I dont like to pick on mechanics, but I get the impression they dont know Mack engines.. I suggest you search out some other posts on here related to your issue, and read them.. with respect, Jojo Jojo......this isn't by any chance the same dealer where you went looking for the offset keyway , is it ? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenbjackson Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 (edited) 7 hours ago, dieselpowerstroke said: No, by sleeve i meant injector cup. Pardon my incorrect terminology there. They were telling me the cups were leaking coolant. If they are correct, that would allow combustion pressure into the cooling system if the injector sealing washer let it leak past, correct? But that theres no replacing them because they are machine fit into a reman head. I have never heard of that in my wrenching career. And yes, the lines just have bubble flares i believe. He was saying they could use orings to help seal them. So it seems they are willing to hillbilly my new injector lines to make them seal to the cracked nozzles. Like, really? But also he said afterwards, they would just slobber oil slightly down the side of the head and block worst case, but they wouldnt leak fuel. Im so confused. And i think they want me confused. Knowledge is POWER!!! you need to invest in your chassis' and motor's service manual. A must for an owner of a truck or anything you didnt design. You will not be confused and KNOW the repair process for your motor, as well as specs. That "cant repair something" makes me believe mechanic mispoke( shouldve said "we not equiped to do such a repair in-house." not that it cannot be done) or just does not know...........! Either is really bad, thats a big slip of words and id get my truck from them. Edited February 9 by glenbjackson 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 I agree with Glen. Heck I bought the tools and build those engines in my my little shop at home.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeH Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 What I don't understand is how taking off the injector lines cracks the nozzle cup down in the injector bore. Granted I've never had to pull injectors myself, but shouldn't the injector and thus the cup be locked into place by the injector retaining bolt(s)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 Your right JoeH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 Mack injector cups are thick and mechnicaly pressed in. These heads crack around the injector hole or between valve seats. Just keep it simple. Do all the tests that we post before you break open the piggy bank.. jojo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 as Joey Said ! ok... too much to absorb.. stop them, and pull the truck home.. the injector cups on those engines dont crack. I have seen over the whole time I worked on these! injector(sleeves) not cups leak MAYBE twice and never internal !And apparently you have Two leaking NOPE Don't think so ! Get the truck out of that shop! They are not real Mack oriented they got Volvo brain! I have seen where the wrong sleeve was installed in the wrong head coolant leaked out the injector line! These can be replaced in frame IF they are leaking! But they aren't! Injection lines leak yup Fuel ! Tow the truck it would be wise to get the hell out of there tow it to joeys if you have to It will be a way cheaper and it would get fixed proper! And another thing I would suggest if you have disturbed the rocker assemblies replace the bolts there were issues at one time with these and you want to start fresh there ! Joey will likely get get you talked thru the coolant push thing here! another embellishment I read was High liners That never happened either! low liners in the early engines yup ! but not on AI or AC Get the truck out of there! this engine wasn't One of Macks stellar builds but it didn't have any injector sleeve issues to speak of! They were guilty of trying to make it Eat Its own shit just like all the rest due to the emission rules! extra heat to deal with bla bla bla ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 14 hours ago, Joey Mack said: I have been able to re-use those injector lines. I take a small piece of 320 emery cloth in my finger tips and rotate the ends of the lines until the impression is all but gone. theres been many times where all 6 stayed sealed.. NO o-rings or sealant is used,, EVER... they dont leak oil, if they did you will have a bigger issue.. Buddy, I dont like to pick on mechanics, but I get the impression they dont know Mack engines.. I suggest you search out some other posts on here related to your issue, and read them.. with respect, Jojo Get The Truck out of that shop ! The more I read the more I believe you need to RUN! THEY ARE CLUE LESS! and full of BS! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 So what's your point ?? Don't hold back, FJH... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 3 minutes ago, Joey Mack said: So what's your point ?? Don't hold back, FJH... I'm Sad that there are Shops that impersonate being Mack dealers some times! but that goes with this generation of people that have No integrity No concept of pride in workmanship ! Is Just a sad state of affairs ! Depressing to See! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark T Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 If only they could find it on YouTube, this guy's problems would be solved. Of course that's once the service "writer" figured out how to bill it (like how many hours to charge the guy $150.00+/hour) I wouldn't be surprised to learn it's not even combustion causing the overflow . There's no way the shop it's at could pull off the test Joey suggested. It's funny seeing how goofy these shops are until you think about it, then it gets pathetic pretty quick. Those guys should stick to their Volvo service bulletins. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 There are lots of tsb on this subject ! None on F**kn injector Cups On E7! Granted the Volvo turds screwed up the service bulletins like they did to the parts system ! probably hid them some place! Now I think on it these guys where his truck is fit right in !😡 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark T Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 This isn't just a Mack thing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieselpowerstroke Posted February 10 Author Share Posted February 10 Thank you for all the replies! I am a new member and hit my posting limit yesterday so I couldnt respond until now. You gentlemen seem to really know your stuff here and I very much appreciate the advice! I have worked on big diesels for many years, but never on Mack engines so thats why I am questioning these things. They didnt sound right to me either. I just wanted to clarify some things here to make sure I am not being dumb or mistakenly using wrong terms. Is the injector cup and injector sleeve the same thing, just a different name? Or are they two different parts? I had assumed they were the same thing. The dealer didnt use the word 'cracked', but said the injector sleeves leaked coolant, #4 leaked a little at the far end of it and #3 leaked worse when they got to it. Said they could blow shop air in it to clean it off and #3 would pool coolant back up immediately under pressure where #4 slowly bubbled. They said when they removed my original high pressure injection lines, that the nozzles cracked. So i am assuming that means right in the side of the head that the lines thread into? So they were going to put 6 new injectors in it. Are there pass throughs that the lines thread onto, or do they thread directly into the injector body? Thats also my thought on why he said they might slobber a little oil, if theres a pass through that doesnt seal. But thats why i was confused, i knew they were fuel lines but had assumed its a dealer tech, he certainly knows more about that engine than me. And yes, he specifically said the cylinder liners, after head removal, would be too high and they wouldnt be able to cut the counterbore enough to lower them into spec, resulting in headgasket failure. That seemed way off to me. But again, not a Mack engine guy so I let him talk. So he says that just means you would need a reman engine, and I told him no way. Because if you cant get my counterbores cut down, how did they do it on the reman engine? Thats when he started talking about something else haha. So upset with this dealership right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 i will try to go in order....injector sleeve/cup, either way, not the issue..... shop air into the injector bore?? so when the heads were off did they see cracks? fuel lines DO NOT have seperate tubes like a john deere dozer engine,,, the lines go directly to the injector no threads at the injector, they are pressed into the injector with the nut that you see on the side of the head..... no oil will slober..... high liners is highly unlikely, and how did he know? did he use a sled gauge to check protrusion? and know where to put the pointer? did he give you the measurements?..... Mack liner protrusion on your engine is .023''-.029'' with a .002'' variance between banks.. once again, little ol'e me has has that tool... (mid-stop cutter) I cut counter bores,.... heres a picture... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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