10 Hole Budd Wheels On Old Mack Trucks ?

[joe118800]

Hello , and Happy New Year.

I've seen some old macks on this site and others with budd wheels. I don't recall seeing these back in the day. Are the hubs available today, or have these owners done some major spindle fabricating to install budd hubs? I picked up an H63 and would like to put aluminum wheels all the way around if the budd hubb was a true option back then on the steer and drive axles. Any info about the budd option in 1955 and availiablity / location on these hubbs would be appreaciated. Thanks, Joe

[RowdyRebel]

Hello , and Happy New Year.

I've seen some old macks on this site and others with budd wheels. I don't recall seeing these back in the day. Are the hubs available today, or have these owners done some major spindle fabricating to install budd hubs? I picked up an H63 and would like to put aluminum wheels all the way around if the budd hubb was a true option back then on the steer and drive axles. Any info about the budd option in 1955 and availiablity / location on these hubbs would be appreaciated. Thanks, Joe

ummmm....why would you want to switch to budd wheels? I've got 'em on my '01 and never have really liked 'em much...although I seem to have figured out why I was busting barrel nuts all the time so they don't seem AS bad these days. I STILL keep a pretty close eye on 'em, though. Worst was when I had 8 barrel nuts break on one side of one axle in a matter of 60 miles....got REEEEEEEAL lucky....outer wheel was only held on by 2 lugs.

I've looked at Alcoa's website for new rims...I run H-rated 11R24.5 tires, and I know they have rims rated for those weights...just not available for budd wheels.

[rsb502]

As far as availability, you have to change your hubs to a stud or hub mounted hub versus the spoke hubs you have now. I have done it before you just get the hubs with the same bearing demensions as the spoke hubs you have. There is another big deciding factor too do you wand the old style three or two piece aluminum budd wheels or the newer style single piece wheels. I dont know if the bolt pattern is the same for the older two piece wheels or not but that is what I would want on that truck if I took the spokes off, keep it in the right era. I dont think it would be too hard to swap no matter what you choose you just have to get out a caliper and get to mweasuring then make some calls or do some internet searching for part numbers. Ryan

[joe118800]

As far as availability, you have to change your hubs to a stud or hub mounted hub versus the spoke hubs you have now. I have done it before you just get the hubs with the same bearing demensions as the spoke hubs you have. There is another big deciding factor too do you wand the old style three or two piece aluminum budd wheels or the newer style single piece wheels. I dont know if the bolt pattern is the same for the older two piece wheels or not but that is what I would want on that truck if I took the spokes off, keep it in the right era. I dont think it would be too hard to swap no matter what you choose you just have to get out a caliper and get to mweasuring then make some calls or do some internet searching for part numbers. Ryan

To; Rowdy Rebel,

I'm intersted in going budd so can run aluminum wheels. I've never had a budd lug nut crack , break or any other type of problem. Are you sure we are both talking about the same thing? I do thank you for replying though. If your having lugs strip or crack, I would think that your possiblty not putting enough torque when tightening them. If I'm not mistaken, I believe you should be torquing them at near 600 lbs. You may want to check that spec, for certain, but I think that is the requirement.

to; Superdog,

The bolt hole pattern is the same for new or old. The older lugs are just lug piloted verses the new hub piloted wheels that we use today. The only company ( to my knowledge), to build a truck with a different 10 bolt hole bolt pattern was the 1969 greyhound visualiner. They built the buses at 102 " width assuming the D.O.T. would allow that extra width when at the time 8' was the legal width. The government did not allow it at the time, and very few of that model was produced. Now we have the 102 " width as legal, and I did own one for a short time, and wanting to switch to allumnum wheels was impossible because of the larger bolt pattern and which allowed for 12:00x 20 tires .

In terms of the wheel style for this H63, I would run the three piece tube type with 10:00 x 20's. It is good then hubs are availiable and that changing hubs is the only thing needed, and not the whole spindle .

Does anyone know if the budd wheel was an option from MACK in 1955 ?

I am really wanting to restore this truck to 1955 era. The aluminum just looks so much better in my opinion, and if it was an option back then then I will get the caliper out and put new hubs and drums on.

Would anyone here have any info on who might have the 3 piece tube type aluminium wheels ?

As always with this site, folks here seems more than intersted in helping a soul out with info or suggestions.. I really enjoy reading this column . Thanks again..

[vanscottbuilders]

Joe,

I like your H-63.

We have one very similar in our shop now for a total restoration.

As for Budd wheels and hubs, I believe that the Budd wheel was an option from the factory at that time.

The disc wheels were quite common out west.

I do have a complete "hub to hub" original Budd hub front axle with brakes that I believe will fit your truck. I'll have to check the model number to be sure.

If you are interested, PM me here on BMT. As for the rear axle, it may be simpler and cheaper to change out the original rear end and potentially gain a more desireable final drive ratio as well as the wheels you are looking for.

Paul Van Scott

[RowdyRebel]

To; Rowdy Rebel,

I'm intersted in going budd so can run aluminum wheels. I've never had a budd lug nut crack , break or any other type of problem. Are you sure we are both talking about the same thing? I do thank you for replying though. If your having lugs strip or crack, I would think that your possiblty not putting enough torque when tightening them. If I'm not mistaken, I believe you should be torquing them at near 600 lbs. You may want to check that spec, for certain, but I think that is the requirement.

nope...they NEVER crack, break, or have any other kind of problem I've been having problems with these stupid barrel nuts breaking ever since I bought the truck. Usually it is just one or two at a time...easy enough to take care of. One trip, though, I loaded & did my walk-around and everything was fine. 60 miles later, I pull onto a DOT scale 400# heavy on my drives (but legal on the gross) and thankfully they gave me the green light. I exited off at the next exit (1/2 mile from the scale) and pulled into the fuel stop. While fueling, I did another walk-around and found this...right rear drive...the side FACING the DOT officers in the scale house. I didn't think to get the camera out until after the outer wheel was removed (didn't take long...only 2 lugs were holding it on).

FWIW, though, we DID find what we are HOPING was causing a majority of my wheel issues. When I bought the truck, it had barrel nuts with the large flange for aluminum inner wheels, but I had steel.

Anyway, I broke a few barrel nuts, but NO SHOP ever caught the error...even when I got new drive tires, the tire shop didn't catch it. This truck is my first experience with budd wheels, so I didn't know any better. Anyway, once I became aware of THAT problem, I bought the proper barrel nuts and had them installed....but the barrel nuts still kept breaking. Eventually, the tires started wearing the inside shoulder, too...but since I run a VERY aggressive, open lug tire, both the tire shop and the Mack dealer chalked it up to the tire design. After the 8-broken-barrel-nuts-in-60-miles incident, I put my foot down and insisted SOMETHING had to be wrong. I was having the inner drive tires flipped on the rims anyway, so when they saw the rim flanges were worn I got 4 new steel wheels while the tires were broken down anyway. So far (knock on wood), I haven't had any further troubles....but the trouble these stupid budd wheels have caused me up to this point is still in the back of my mind going down the road. I still carry 10 extra barrel nuts & 10 extra lug nuts for each side...

As soon as the truck is paid off, I'm upgrading the axles...beefing 'em up...if for no other reason than to get these blasted things OFF my truck. Anyone who actually WANTS these wheels is out of their friggin' mind

[mackcl96]

nope...they NEVER crack, break, or have any other kind of problem I've been having problems with these stupid barrel nuts breaking ever since I bought the truck. Usually it is just one or two at a time...easy enough to take care of. One trip, though, I loaded & did my walk-around and everything was fine. 60 miles later, I pull onto a DOT scale 400# heavy on my drives (but legal on the gross) and thankfully they gave me the green light. I exited off at the next exit (1/2 mile from the scale) and pulled into the fuel stop. While fueling, I did another walk-around and found this...right rear drive...the side FACING the DOT officers in the scale house. I didn't think to get the camera out until after the outer wheel was removed (didn't take long...only 2 lugs were holding it on).

FWIW, though, we DID find what we are HOPING was causing a majority of my wheel issues. When I bought the truck, it had barrel nuts with the large flange for aluminum inner wheels, but I had steel.

Anyway, I broke a few barrel nuts, but NO SHOP ever caught the error...even when I got new drive tires, the tire shop didn't catch it. This truck is my first experience with budd wheels, so I didn't know any better. Anyway, once I became aware of THAT problem, I bought the proper barrel nuts and had them installed....but the barrel nuts still kept breaking. Eventually, the tires started wearing the inside shoulder, too...but since I run a VERY aggressive, open lug tire, both the tire shop and the Mack dealer chalked it up to the tire design. After the 8-broken-barrel-nuts-in-60-miles incident, I put my foot down and insisted SOMETHING had to be wrong. I was having the inner drive tires flipped on the rims anyway, so when they saw the rim flanges were worn I got 4 new steel wheels while the tires were broken down anyway. So far (knock on wood), I haven't had any further troubles....but the trouble these stupid budd wheels have caused me up to this point is still in the back of my mind going down the road. I still carry 10 extra barrel nuts & 10 extra lug nuts for each side...

As soon as the truck is paid off, I'm upgrading the axles...beefing 'em up...if for no other reason than to get these blasted things OFF my truck. Anyone who actually WANTS these wheels is out of their friggin' mind

What I find odd is you have a 2001 Mack and has stud pilot wheels didn't D.O.T ban them in 95 on new trucks or something, last time I seen stud pilot was in the early 90's

Also I found on older stud mount in heavy operation,not to mix aluminum and steel on the same hub

they heat and flex different.

Check with Mack see if you can use hub pilot studs or change the hub you will be better off

[steve s.]

Joe, Your H63 is a great looking truck. Of course it is your choice to do with it whatever you want, but for what it's worth ,I think it would look odd with Budd wheels on it. The only way I can imagine aluminum wheels looking right on such a classic model would be old style 5 hole wheels on the front axle only. Steve

[rsb502]

Joe, Your H63 is a great looking truck. Of course it is your choice to do with it whatever you want, but for what it's worth ,I think it would look odd with Budd wheels on it. The only way I can imagine aluminum wheels looking right on such a classic model would be old style 5 hole wheels on the front axle only. Steve

I too am puzzled by the '01 w stud pilot wheels I have never seen anything but school buses with them after the late '90s Blue Bird Buses still had them right up to the mid 2000's and just in the last few years went to hub pilot as standard equipment. I also dont know how you are breaking so many I have run triaxle dump trucks with stud pilots and never broken one, and here in TN we are legal for 74,000lbs gross if that wont do it nothing will. I also like the info on the hubs the ones I have converted were all newer so it was pretty easy to go to the parts store and get the hubs, and I always went to hub pilot from spoke never from spoke to stud pilot. I thought they were the same bolt p[attern for all stud pilots but wasnt sure I know they made 8 lug hub pilots and the front wheel on a front dump cement truck is different than the others so I wasnt sure about different bolt patterns. I hope you have fun with the project its a neat truck. Ryan

[HK Trucking]

What I find odd is you have a 2001 Mack and has stud pilot wheels didn't D.O.T ban them in 95 on new trucks or something, last time I seen stud pilot was in the early 90's

Also I found on older stud mount in heavy operation,not to mix aluminum and steel on the same hub

they heat and flex different.

Check with Mack see if you can use hub pilot studs or change the hub you will be better off

The hubs would have to be changed to go from stud pilot to hub pilot (Unimount).

The bolt pattern is the same, and stud pilot rims will slide onto Unimount hubs, however, since the stud holes and center hole are a larger diameter than a Unimount, there is nothing to "pilot" the rim to the hub and it will not run true or stay tight for very long.

[mackcl96]

The hubs would have to be changed to go from stud pilot to hub pilot (Unimount).

The bolt pattern is the same, and stud pilot rims will slide onto Unimount hubs, however, since the stud holes and center hole are a larger diameter than a Unimount, there is nothing to "pilot" the rim to the hub and it will not run true or stay tight for very long.

True on the hub info, But I cant believe it has stud mount

Thinking In the back of my head,someone has put the wrong studs in before he got the truck

Cant see if the hub has the guide plates for the rim

[David]

The 10 hole Hub and Stud Piloted wheels are all 11 1/4 inch bolt pattern. The only exception I know of is the 13 1/4 inch bolt pattern on the 1400x24 used on the military 10 ton 6x6. They also have a larger center hole to clear the 65k hubs.

[joe118800]

Joe, Your H63 is a great looking truck. Of course it is your choice to do with it whatever you want, but for what it's worth ,I think it would look odd with Budd wheels on it. The only way I can imagine aluminum wheels looking right on such a classic model would be old style 5 hole wheels on the front axle only. Steve

This is the big question. I have no problem putting the budds on if in fact they were an availiable option for that model year. If not, then I'll leave the daytons.

[RowdyRebel]

True on the hub info, But I cant believe it has stud mount

Thinking In the back of my head,someone has put the wrong studs in before he got the truck

Cant see if the hub has the guide plates for the rim

Looking back through some old pics to see if I could find a pic that would show....

this is out in Colorado buying the truck...

this is from when I got my new drives:

It's had budd wheels as long as I've had it. As fed-up with 'em as I am, I can't see myself swapping out the hubs. I'd have to get new rims, too, and if I'm going to take on that expense, I'll upgrade the axles and suspension to 46K w/ full lockers while I'm at it instead of JUST changing the hubs on my 38K rears....and same with the steers, instead of JUST the hubs & rims, I'll put new axles & springs (probably 18K) and get wider tires so the front won't be as likely to sink in softer ground. CTI would be a nice touch too all the way around, while I'm upgrading axles & such...maybe with dash controls to air 'em down for extra traction...might help on tire wear, too, if I could air 'em up & down depending on the load so they maintained their intended contact patch with the road.

...if'n yer gonna spend money "improving" anything, ya may as well save up for a while and go all out.

[rsb502]

Looking back through some old pics to see if I could find a pic that would show....

this is out in Colorado buying the truck...

this is from when I got my new drives:

It's had budd wheels as long as I've had it. As fed-up with 'em as I am, I can't see myself swapping out the hubs. I'd have to get new rims, too, and if I'm going to take on that expense, I'll upgrade the axles and suspension to 46K w/ full lockers while I'm at it instead of JUST changing the hubs on my 38K rears....and same with the steers, instead of JUST the hubs & rims, I'll put new axles & springs (probably 18K) and get wider tires so the front won't be as likely to sink in softer ground. CTI would be a nice touch too all the way around, while I'm upgrading axles & such...maybe with dash controls to air 'em down for extra traction...might help on tire wear, too, if I could air 'em up & down depending on the load so they maintained their intended contact patch with the road.

...if'n yer gonna spend money "improving" anything, ya may as well save up for a while and go all out.

Well one thing is for sure you got to get those darn pete wheels off that Mack somehow geez, you must be one of them red oval guys. I would have made the dealer swap em before I took it home, traitor. lol

[Packer]

Hey Guys,

I worked in trucks shops in the late '60's thru the '70's and fought the busted lug issue

on Alum wheels, tearing my hair as I went along.

Took a bit to work thru, but came up with a cure-all in the problem!

The inner studs, the ones that are in the hub, come in differant lengths.

IF you put ALUM wheels on studs the right length for STEEL wheels the only thing that carries the weight on the outer wheel

is the inside nut, and they WILL break!

Because of the much thicker ALUM wheel, the inner stud will not support the outer wheel.

That's why they break the inner nut, and the out side wheel comes off

Even the inner nuts for ALUM wheels are longer, to make up for the thicker wheel.

So-o-o, check to make sure that the STUD extends thru BOTH wheels.

At the time, Alum wheels were just comming into big time use, and because they

were lighter, making for more payload, the big switch was on!!

I replaced a lot of inner nuts and bought a pile of outer nuts.

After the the problem was found and longer studs were installed, the issue went away!

By the way - - - my hair never grew back!!!!!! LMAO

Packer

[RowdyRebel]

Hey Guys,

I worked in trucks shops in the late '60's thru the '70's and fought the busted lug issue

on Alum wheels, tearing my hair as I went along.

Took a bit to work thru, but came up with a cure-all in the problem!

The inner studs, the ones that are in the hub, come in differant lengths.

IF you put ALUM wheels on studs the right length for STEEL wheels the only thing that carries the weight on the outer wheel

is the inside nut, and they WILL break!

Because of the much thicker ALUM wheel, the inner stud will not support the outer wheel.

That's why they break the inner nut, and the out side wheel comes off

Even the inner nuts for ALUM wheels are longer, to make up for the thicker wheel.

So-o-o, check to make sure that the STUD extends thru BOTH wheels.

At the time, Alum wheels were just comming into big time use, and because they

were lighter, making for more payload, the big switch was on!!

I replaced a lot of inner nuts and bought a pile of outer nuts.

After the the problem was found and longer studs were installed, the issue went away!

By the way - - - my hair never grew back!!!!!! LMAO

Packer

I've used a broken stud to try to see how deep into the barrel nuts the stud goes, and I don't think there's enough room for longer studs...they'd bottom out before the inner wheel was held securely.

The truck was bought with the wrong barrel nuts on it...which I'm assuming wrecked the flange on the rims, so that even when I figured out they were the wrong barrel nuts and put the correct ones on, the inner wheels still weren't held securely enough. As the rim flanges got worse, the vibration caused the barrel nuts to break with greater frequency...and started wearing the inside edge of the inner tire quickly, too.

When I had the tire shop actually LOOK at the rims for me, the condition of the rim was very closely correlated to the wear pattern of the tire....the worse the rim, the worse the tire.

4 new (reconditioned) inner wheels, and so far no further problems. Barrel nuts are all intact, and the tire wear problem has subsided. I'm HOPING the problem is "fixed".

[Packer]

Life can be good!

Packer

[bobo]

Hey Guys,

I worked in trucks shops in the late '60's thru the '70's and fought the busted lug issue

on Alum wheels, tearing my hair as I went along.

Took a bit to work thru, but came up with a cure-all in the problem!

The inner studs, the ones that are in the hub, come in differant lengths.

IF you put ALUM wheels on studs the right length for STEEL wheels the only thing that carries the weight on the outer wheel

is the inside nut, and they WILL break!

Because of the much thicker ALUM wheel, the inner stud will not support the outer wheel.

That's why they break the inner nut, and the out side wheel comes off

Even the inner nuts for ALUM wheels are longer, to make up for the thicker wheel.

So-o-o, check to make sure that the STUD extends thru BOTH wheels.

At the time, Alum wheels were just comming into big time use, and because they

were lighter, making for more payload, the big switch was on!!

I replaced a lot of inner nuts and bought a pile of outer nuts.

After the the problem was found and longer studs were installed, the issue went away!

By the way - - - my hair never grew back!!!!!! LMAO

Packer

AMEN! I to was dumb and worked in a shop for years before I got smart and bought a truck LOL! different stud lenghts whether hub or stud pilot. Some 80's stud pilot hubs had a small lip(guide) that that would center the rims. You remove the "inner" studs and replace them with 1 peice hub pilot(studs). I did it on a '80 359 with 38k rears

Edited January 5, 2010 by bobo

[Joe Ditchkus]

joe118800 I found a sales brochure for a H-60ST Mack which was the predecessor to your H-63. It lists an option of aluminum disc wheels. Joe D.

[ducky698]

AMEN! I to was dumb and worked in a shop for years before I got smart and bought a truck LOL! different stud lenghts whether hub or stud pilot. Some 80's stud pilot hubs had a small lip(guide) that that would center the rims. You remove the "inner" studs and replace them with 1 peice hub pilot(studs). I did it on a '80 359 with 38k rears

Hi, what do you mean inner nuts/ outer nuts? how many nuts hold the 2 wheels on over there? 10 or 20? Im confused :)both inner and outer rim here is held on with ten nuts only, and there under alot of load when dragging 3x 45 ton trailers.

Grant

[Joe Ditchkus]

Grant With the Budd Wheels there were 10 inner and 10 outer nut to hold Budd (Disc) style wheel on. Also there were left and right hand threads specific to each side these were also called stud piloted. The newer style Motor wheel Hub Piloted use only 10 nuts per wheel same either side. A big improvement over the Budd Wheels. I prefer Dayton ( Spoke ) wheels. Joe D.

[ducky698]

Grant With the Budd Wheels there were 10 inner and 10 outer nut to hold Budd (Disc) style wheel on. Also there were left and right hand threads specific to each side these were also called stud piloted. The newer style Motor wheel Hub Piloted use only 10 nuts per wheel same either side. A big improvement over the Budd Wheels. I prefer Dayton ( Spoke ) wheels. Joe D.

Hi, i see. i have only ever seen spiders or just ten stud here, spiders are more common out here on trailers going north, they tend to keep dollys and trailers the same for going north and carry a couple of spares per trailer, prime movers tend to be either.

Grant

[RowdyRebel]

Hi, i see. i have only ever seen spiders or just ten stud here, spiders are more common out here on trailers going north, they tend to keep dollys and trailers the same for going north and carry a couple of spares per trailer, prime movers tend to be either.

Grant

With budd wheels, you have a barrel nut (inner nut) that is threaded on the inside as well as the outside, with a square cap on the end to put your socket or wrench on to tighten it up. You put the inner wheel on the studs, then tighten the barrel nuts to hold the inner wheel in place. Then, the outer wheel goes on over the barrel nuts and the outer nut threads onto the outside of the barrel nut.

About the only good thing I can see about them is that you can roll the inner wheel up onto a 2x4 to lift the outer wheel off the ground, then you can remove the outer wheel to fix any problem you may have with the outer tire.

[B61TENDT711]

i think it'll look good either way you go with it man . ..

Mike