Oil Re-formulated

[Greg Rider]

Not happy!!! I just read a LOT of info about ZDDP being reduced in engine oil. This has been going on since the early '90s. To keep it simple, ZDDP is a form of zinc and some phosphorus, and this provided protection from metal-to-metal wear. The wisdom of the EPA determined that zink and phosphorus were killing catalytic converters. The reduction of ZDDP has been slowly going on and it is not a big issue with newer engines as they have roller cams. The issue is for vehicles with flat-tappet cams (HELLOOOO!!!!) and this reduction will eat your cam! It wont be a rapid death but reports are that wear is greatly increased. The problem lies in that oil and oil additives have SOME of the ZDDP, but my reading warns that it is not enough for older engines! The automobile manufacturers pushed this reduction because they have to warranty a cat for 100,000 miles and they wanted to reduce their chance of paying for new cats! Some diesel oils have more than conventional oil, but still not enough! I only found ONE additive that claims and shows test results that they have enough ZDDP just for this reason (I still use lead additive for my A ) and showed results from others. Engine break-in oils for the performance crowd (Larry) have very high levels but they are only for break-in as the other protection turns to sh!t rapidly. The additive has ZDDP in their name, (that escaped my brain), but can be easily researched. Other forums about vintage cars (even foreign) are just as concerned. I will be buying 2 bottles on Friday. Many people have blamed this rapid cam failure on "poor metalurgy", cheap "lowest bidder" cams and "not recommended oil", any of those sound familiar?

[Freightrain]

The last few years has wreaked havoc on the hot rod crowd and failed motors(due to additives, or the lack of). Now everone seems to know the real reason why and takes precautions.

My old 67 F100 ran fine with the newer oil, as the valvetrain was so weak it didn't see the wear a "big" cam puts on it. ALL my hot rods get VR-1 Valvoline 20w-50 since it has the proper additives to allow life with flat tappet cams. Never had a failure in all the years. Hope to keep it that way.

[Mike]

Greg,

Thanks for the headsup and long research that you have done. We have been hearing this for quit sometime but we are never ready for the outcome.

Regards

mike

[farmer52]

Greg,

You are correct about ZDDP. I work in the industry (20 years) and have seen the changes in engine oils. However all of my experience is with Diesel engine oils and driveline lubricants. The current CJ-4 oil does have lower ZDDP. All the field tests I have seen, run, and am currently running show lower internal engine wear with CJ-4 compared to previous oils. Part of any oil approval process involves an engine lab test with slider followers and it must pass the wear specification set by the OEMs. This is so the oil is "backwards" compatible for older engines. So while I understand your concern, you should not have any concerns with CJ-4 oil in older Diesel engines. There are still some CI-4+ oils (high ZDDP) on the market but are being supplied only in drum quantities. As I stated, I am not familiar with gasoline oils (S classification) but I think "racing" oils have higher ZDDP. My company has worked with several racing teams to develop a gasoline oil specifically for their application. Before you all start thinking "free" oil, my company does not sponsor any teams.

[Greg Rider]

I read about the racing oils and I don't really want to run a thicker oil. I did a little more research and there are a few more addititves claiming to have the needed ZDDP. I don't know if it is "enough" but in this situation I guess more is better. Granted my flat-head has less than 9000 miles on it and premature wear is not a real big issue, but still is an issue. I have always run Castrol in everything but our Monte Carlo SS, it gets Mobil 1. I thought about putting one qt. of break-in oil in with my regular changes. She holds 9 qts. so I thought about 8 plus 1 break-in. Haven't done it yet as I am still leaning toward the additives.

[farmer52]

I read about the racing oils and I don't really want to run a thicker oil. I did a little more research and there are a few more addititves claiming to have the needed ZDDP. I don't know if it is "enough" but in this situation I guess more is better. Granted my flat-head has less than 9000 miles on it and premature wear is not a real big issue, but still is an issue. I have always run Castrol in everything but our Monte Carlo SS, it gets Mobil 1. I thought about putting one qt. of break-in oil in with my regular changes. She holds 9 qts. so I thought about 8 plus 1 break-in. Haven't done it yet as I am still leaning toward the additives.

I am on vacation/holiday until next week. I will ask our "experts" what they recommend. BTW, the racing oils I speak of are something like 10 weight so they are anything but thick. Of course they only need to last 1/4 mile or 500 miles.

[Greg Rider]

I have seen both types of racing oil. The 10w that you mention and the 20-50 that is more common. I appreciate the help on this. Wanted to get her ready for the holiday parades, but time is against me, oh yea, money too

[Rob]

Typical of Rob, and the obscure way he does things, I have always ran diesel rated oil in my gas engines that were older than 1986 or so. This is based on when carburation became more of a thing of the past. I still have two full barrels of older diesel engine oil in the shop that meet the specification of "CD" and no further to give example of age.

In my 68 Plymouth I always ran diesel rated S.A.E. 30wt oil in the warm months, and diesel rated S.A.E. 20wt in the cold months. I never was much on multi-grade oils until I was older and laziness set in. This particular car I drove till 314,640 miles on the odometer and it had never been apart for engine work other than a water pump, timing chain and a couple of mechanical fuel pumps over it's lifetime. I received the car from a neighbor that purchased it new and it had all of 61,000 miles when I got it. I ran the living SNOT out of that thing and it would not give up!

Anyway on the way to work one morning, (July, 1996) it really started to hammering in the valvetrain. Later that evening I pulled the intake, and rocker covers off, (still had Mopar cork/neoprene gaskets) to pull the lifters and look at the cam and what I discovered surprised me: There was very little "dishing" to the underside of the lifters where they ride the cam, and the cam itself looked almost new. Something else I noticed was a little bit of an aluminum flake material beside one of the cam bearing journals. After removing the cam, I discovered that there was no babbit material left on any of the cam bearings and they were all shiney copper! I further thought, "Damn, this ain't natural"! I then proceeded to pull the engine out of the car and rebuild it at this point.

Here's the point I'm leading to: I sent that cam into a competent machine shop and it it still within manufactures' specification as far as lift, duration, thrust face, etc. I know the early 340 Chrysler engines were cast in the marine foundry lines, but know nothing about the cams other than the 68 four speed cars had a different profile than the automatics, and the 69 and up cam profile. I had it polished and it is going back into the engine whenever I decide to finish it. I think using a diesel rated oil for all those years prolonged the service life of that engine for many more miles than normal. I've always purchased oil by the case, (when a case was 24 quarts, in cardboard cans, with a metal lid) and barrels, and kept to a rigid 3500 mileage drain interval until fuel injection. I now drain at 5000 mile intervals. Even to this day I believe changing oil routinely is "cheap insurance" if you plan to not have a car payment, (which I don't).

I believe in taking very good care of what you have and it will take care of you. Oil quality is something I don't skimp on and the reward has been handsome, (unlike me).

It is the same routine I follow in my old Macks including the A-40.

Guess I'm a creature of habit.

Rob

[Greg Rider]

As I am not financially gifted like our government, my mileage per year is in the 100 to 150 per year. I change the oil every fall when she goes into winter hibernation. At that rate my grandchildren might get it to 100,000 miles, but by then fossil fuels from dead animals will be illegal. I could have Larry custom cut a cam capable of 7000 RPM with roller lifters so oil issues will be null. Lets see, 3000 RPM in 5th gear = 62mph, then 6000 RPM would be,,,,,, WHOA BABY!!! That would be a fast A-30 . Are 9:00/20 tires speed rated?

I could get to your place in not too many minutes!

[steve s.]

Greg, You mention using lead substitute in your A, which is fine, but I think if you do some research you'll probably find that gasoline did not contain any lead when your truck was built. Lead became a popular additive in the late fifties, mainly for use with the high compression engines of the day. It could be that oil had no ZDP additves when your truck was built either. Steve.

[Freightrain]

Like I mentioned about my '67 I ran std Valvoline 10w40 in it. It had 150K miles on it( I put 50K on it) and I didn't worry much about wiping a cam out due to the weak valve springs. After 35 yrs, it was worn in and don't think the additives are all that critical at this point.

Your old Flathead would probably survive on used cooking oil, let alone a low additive new oil.

[farmer52]

Greg,

I did some checking and the ZDP of CJ-4 is about 1200 ppm versus 1400 ppm for CI-4+. You will be okay with either a CJ-4 or CI-4+ oil. Shell offers a 10W-30 Rotella T in addition to 15W-40 and Synthetic 5W-40. The phosphorus and sulfated ash took a big hit for CJ-4 (Diesel aftertreatment devices). Hope this helps!