fjh

I found out today that this truck is on it's way to Canada to go to work hauling BIG logs! It actually left at about 6pm from our show!

Yup! Herd we might be getting it soon just roumors thou.

They better get it here fast the big logs are almost all gone!

I beleive if they could have ,they would have!But that would have opened them up to law suits!Too many just mack dealers! If you had the volvo and the mack line you would have to keep your trap shut!But if you had Just the MacK line then you would have lots of amo!They will likly starve the dealers for parts and do other things to make it not worth while to be a macK Dealer!They will get it done!

Looks like the trans cooler is bad

Yup

By pass the trans cooler for now Change out the oil in the trans .run it for a day change out the oil in the trans once more install a new cooler or just leave it disconected!

I'm almost positive that u are correct. The only other thing they changed was timing that i know of.

injectors, pump, and turbo between the 400, 440, 450, and 500.

Correct!

There were some liner oring diffences on newer blocks.

yeah being able to split the top side is priceless to me I run a fuller 13 in my vision, I think you will be doing alot a extra work to put the Mack 13spd when you could just straight swap to a fuller 18spd low hole would be the same as your 8ll, and u could spit every gear, fuller 13 has a 12.43 lo hole, plenty good enough for what I do but putting in the Mack trans, would make the truck all mack

I have to agree with this!Staying with the fuller would be likly alot less costly time and price wise!

the 8 trans housing would likly fit the 18.

There should have been some TPS codes showing that the throdle was down.

I have seen the tps cause power problems with out throwing codes but its very unlikly!

He'll need an Eaton Fuller bellhousing with the Mack trans mount arrangement. Other truck brands mount the engine/trans by using mounts on the engine flywheel housing, hence a Fuller transmission would not have the provision for mounts on the bellhousing unless it came out of a Mack.

Most of the Fullers nowadays have a .73 overdrive in high gear. Depending on what Mack transmission he is replacing it could be slower, or faster. For example, most of the T200 Mack transmissions had a .60 overdrive, so if the Fuller replaces one of those, the top road speed would be slower.

On the other hand, if the Fuller is replacing a 107 series transmission with direct in high gear, then the top road speed will be faster.

As far as losing reduction in low gear, that again would depend on which Mack trans vs. which Fuller trans.

Yup like i said the short list!The trans housing for the mack and I beleive some older western stars also mount the same as the mack However the clutch arm is always beneth on a mack!

Do you guys recommend using Mack reman heads or transmissions, or do you guys have better suggestions on a place for these parts. The reason I ask is because i've had problems with certain Mack reman stuff, namely injectors, and don't want to have to replace them twice, as these are alot more work. Also has anyone swapped a fuller for a Mack transmission? Is there more than just driveshaft adjustments to make? Any suggestions or advice would be greatly appreciated because i'm on borrowed time.

If you have the time to be down have your heads rebuilt by a reputable machine shop!

Down side to that is mack heads have a one year warrenty I believe.

Trans!Heres the short list , u need to replace the stick and air line stuff

and the Mounts and clutch arm are another concern! A lot of little stuff to think on!

Thanks guys. It still shows no fault code on dealer scan but today it seems to be running normal. I tried the self scan using mode and reset buttons but all that comes up is a single reading of < 1.2 > in the top right corner of display.

I have cleaned all terminal and connections from batteries out. There is a sensor w/2 wire connection in the aluminum air tube going from turbo to charge air that upon removal looks dirty with slight heat damaged wiring. Do either of you know what this sensor controls? Thanks again--Jerry

I will say this one more time!!!

THE TURBO CAN COME OUT OF TUNE and Will not throw a code Have it recalibrated and make sure its going full stroke!Have em watch the lever and push it full stroke if need be!The computer remebers the stroke in the recal sequence.Have em use the advance display in the vmac 4 program and make sure the egr flow and turbo are reaching their targets! The two wire plug you speak of throws a 270 code if faulty (compressor discharge temp code.)

you can see any active or stored code with out the scanner turn the key on hold the mode and reset button in at the same time for a few seconds and release any codes will show up on the display, but what you have to me sounds more like a loose or corroded ground, loose connection, or corrosion on a fuse I would start at the batter box, fuse box and ground breaker on the fire wall and connection to the ecu and ecm and also there are cab and motor grounds to frame

Go to a dealer have em recalibrate the VGturbo

and clean out the egr cooler if its not been done latly! see if that will help!

It sounds like the splitter is slipping out of gear on a coast. It should have a grinding noise in it but it is not the cltutch so it is a matter of breaking open the trans and looking at one of the air shifts.

Do you have two sticks Or air shift for deep reduction? The front section can pop out of gear if its air shift and you won't be able to tell!The shift fork is likly worn! the trans has to come out to repair this !I would pull the drain plug and see if you got any peices coming out , ball bearings are the most common failure on a 12 sp

Before you disconnect make sure the puff limiter hasn't just been re-shimmed. It's been a few years since I worked on one of these so I can't remember if turning it in or out makes the throttle response. One of the experts here can tell you. I had to take one of the ones I drove for the mandatory emmisions test we have here and the dealer shimmed it to make it pass. When I went to leave it had very slow response and would barely accelerate itself up to speed. I had to re-shim it when I got home.

Also, instead of just plugging the air lines, I ran mine through an air switch. (same one as for a power divider or the one used for the deep reduction on the 12 speed.) That way you could make it smokeless if the dot is around, and get the power when you need it.

Just proove out what and if you have a problem !Disconect the line to the bimboe on the fuel pump cap it off and run it with a load and see if you power is better on hills if so the reversing relay for the puff limit is likly fubared!

The limiter may be working but incorrectly

International had a big add in this Sundays Morning Call. The postings say they are looking for 100 engineers from Allentown and they will interview in Allentown.

Here's the link on the Navastar site.

International

Get on It Pal!The early bird gets the worm!

Yea it's got a coolant conditioner. There isn't any coolant in the oil but a gallon( of anti-freeze) every other day is going somewhere and I know that's bad

The guy that owned it before me beat the f%$# out of it. Bent the frame, busted the fifth wheel. I put a few $$$ into it getting it set up for what i'm doing but i didn't want to spend $14,000 for an in frame. But that's the cost of doing business.

The hell of it is the truck runs great!!!!

If its not going into the pan then its gong out the exhast or into the trans oil thru the trans oil cooler!

odviously you preasure checked the system for External leaks?Checked the trany latly?

Low liners is another comon thing in that era.Liners were set at low spec (19 thou) alot of the time low spec is to low as time has shown.460 HP engines had more problems with this than the lower HP engines!High spec is 29 thou!

Alot of diffrence!

Most common place for the puff limiter is tapped into the top of the intake manafold. there will be 2 air lines going to it.

a quick test to see if it is working correctly is to set the yellow parking brake and snap the throttle to the floor. if should throw a thick black cloud...

then release the brake and snap the throttle it should have less smoke if the puff is working.

if you locate the puff pinch off one of the lines and it will throw smoke evertime you shift. the down side of unhooking the puff is that the excess fuel between shifts can work its way into the oil pan and delute the oil.

Might try making shure the throttle linkage is alowing the pump to go to full fuel?

Trent

And stop full off!

try this http://www.challengertrucks.com/cindex.html

-Monty

COOL!

Good find Monty

What I liked about the challanger was it was mechanic friendly ! the hood fliped straight up out of the way not butterfly like the mack and hayes and pacific! the engine was on a crate inside the frame on the first model and the engine and trans could be pulled as a lump out the front on its own engine stand so to speak.John was sort of a Wrench him self so he new the things needed to service properly.

If Mack was spun off, Volvo would probably try to get a long term engine supply contract in the deal. That might get them into trouble with the antitrust laws, so they'd have to offer other engine options... I'm sure Cummins would be happy to engineer an installation for every Mack model!

There aint nothin left on the thing thats mack now anyway No one would want it!

the only thing on the truck now that is truly mack is the cab + Hood!You can still get the diffs and trans but for how long who knows.The hydralic clutch linkage to be added shortly is next!We still got a cable something that works and is adjustable ,We can't have that!

I did some more digging. Mack's web site says the CL350ST was designed in Canada and built at the Oakville, Ontario Canada plant. They show production from 1976 to 1979 with 27 made in those years. I have a Canadian Bulldog Magazine (vol.82 #1) I believe from 1980 that has a pic of a brand new CL350ST painted yellow with a green stripe. The quote says "Heinz and Mike Portmann of Campbell River have taken delivery of the first or two CL350ST units for logging operation in Loughborough Inlet." Pretty impressive looking unit. I imagine they had Detroit power like most other fat trucks of the time did?

I have a Mack product line brochure from 1978 that shows the M Series and Mack-Pack. There is only one pic (single axle dump truck) and details are limited other than saying they available with 800 h.p. 2 or 4 cycle engines and Mack Planidrive axles. Also interesting to note Mack was the only haul truck manufacturer in that class with all wheel disc brakes. Macks website has production of M series-1960 to 1979, M100-1967 to 68 at 3 units, MP404X-1976 to 1978 at 20 units. That's all the info I can find on the Big Macks. Other than I have that hardcover book "Mack Driven for a Century" and it has some pics. They show a restored M100 tandem dump truck, brown in colour. Very nice. I wonder how many are still around in the hands of collectors?

If anyone has any other info or pics please post. Thanks for the other info fjh.

I remember when I was young, I have an uncle that lived by the Oakville plant and he told me he saw a giant dump truck there one day. I do remember driving by it when it just before it went out of operation, but all I remember is R models as far as the eye could see. Does anyone have any pics from the Oakville plant?

A couple other interesting facts I came up with are the DMM (EX) twin steer front drive trucks were designed in Canada in 1972 and also the RD800 in 1980.

Your welcome and yes the favorite engine was 12 71, I had the opertunity to do a V8 transplant on one of these made it a ture mack e9 and a 12 sp all but maybe 2 were born with 12s the others had KT cummins special order ,husby forest still runs some now with I beleive ser 60 repowers.

Our shop handled or pdied most of these units there where a large amount of updates to do before they were put to work We modified fuel tanks, planitarys had a few glitches and the mack wheel lock was disposed of for a more tire man friendly setup.there where a bunch more tidleeys done to many to list!

All In All second only to the challenger It was the best of the fat trucks!

The guy that built th challenger was rumored to have sold the company and plans to the ausies for an ore hauler!They even hired his engineer. Rumors rumors!

It doesn't make sense that they move the highway line to Macungie. I purchased a new 08 Mack Pinnacle and it is the same frame/crossmembers as a Volvo and I was told that is why the were built on the same line. At Macungie they build the true Mack lineup. In fact I could not even order my new 08 with Mack tranny or rears as I was told that only the Macungie built trucks got that option. Sooooooooooooo does that really mean the end of the highway line of Mack soon? Should a bought a KW!!

Anyway I made this coment in Barrys good or bad for mack pole last year I must be a fortune teller!

I know this is a bit late and an old post but ,I have to say that the Volvo engine does look to be a decent power plant Mack guy!THIS IS THE ONLY UPSIDE TO MY COMENTS.

Having said that MackGuy ,I have worked, on , for and around Mack trucks for most of my working life 30 years OR SO ,as well as the volvo stuff fords kw PETES and the rest to some degree!The truck we sell now is a Volvo with a mack cab! DON'T KID US, THE volvo people have KEPT NONE, of the Good mack IDEAS ,NOT ONE! THE dog on the hood and the cab is all thats left.You take the cab off the frame its a volvo frame ,engine and abunch of jobber parts. SORRY its for the most part the truth I was once a proud mack guy now I work on Volvo stuff ,I have less kinder words for it but won't use it here!These Guys could have at least kept some of the simple Ideas and used them`NOT ONE did they keep! SO FAR ONLY THING I SEE that I MILDLY like is the engine IMPRESS me with some good old simple MACK stuff ont the rest of the truck ! Mack diffs mack trans mack built tough frames suspention yada yada!

Sorry had to rant!

The cab and hood were all thats left in that post!

The volvo cab is next the hood to follow!The dog will stay on the hood with a slash thru the grille

then they will shoot the dog!

Sven will now be happy the dog is dead!

You have now been asimulated By Sven and Olley

The estamated time of life for the dog on the hood you ask? 2015 a normal dogs life 10-15 years Sven and Olley will have owned the dog for 14.

Yes the Mack will soon be just another model of Volvo just like Autocar and rest!

3p I hope they keep the mack guys and give some of the volvo dudes the boot but I highly doubt it!

I used to love those. I have some Bulldog magazines from the early 80's that have pics of one of those CL 350 ST's painted yellow. Was that something that came out of the Hayes relationship? Or did Mack make them themselves

Have you guys ever heard of Challenger Trucks from British Columbia, Canada. They used to rebuild Hayes, Pacific, Mack, KW, etc. I-beam tractors for the logging and mining industry, then designed their own truck with a lot of new updates over those previous designs. I have a brochure and pics from them and the Mack E-9 was their standard spec engine. They offered all the big Cat, Cummins and V12 Detroits but praised the Mack E9 as having the best power to weight to fuel economy ratio of all the engines. They also praised the reliability of them.

Sweet looking B Model mixer there Other Dog!

? one!

Built BY mack! not by someone else.

Rumor had it that the engineer that desgined the hayes hdx quit over some argument with managment at hayes and was hired by Mack to redesign a logger for em!

that is what he came up with.

All but about half a dozen came to Vancouver Island to live!The red and white cabs M+B bought 12

the rest were sold to several smaller independants Husby forest products had 6 or so and still run several!Most of them Have gone to the bone yard as the fat truck era is about over now.

Too expensive to repair the diffs in these units!They Are Mack planetary diffs a breed of their own.

a run of approx 28 trucks!The cab was swiped from an earlier designed ore truck I beleive and modified to fit the cL.

The Challenger truck Was built by A local Guy that Loved Fat trucks And got sold On the V8 after He had removed a buzzin dozen from one of his trucks and replaced it with an E9 and found he almost could pay for a V8 repower of a truck in a year in fuel savings and with almost half again the horsepower.

He built Half a dosen trucks before the logging tiped over

The only draw back to the engine was the engine brake!What goes up must come down!If you were to see where some of these went up YOU would not like the down part! Most of these guys had the gutts of Dick tracy!

from what I hear the low RPM engines were an attempt to get better MPG. the whole power band was lowered a few hundreed RPM. I see alot of these trucks with 2060 2070 2080 transmissions.

I belive the internals of both the low and normal RPM engines are the same. If anything mechanical and pump timing and possibly the cam may be a little diffrent?? Regardless to get 2100 RPM you simply have the pump reworked to a standard maxidyne spec. you will still have plenty good low RPM torqe and have about a 10 MPH faster top end. the only down side when the pump is reworked for more RPMS and normal torqe range is that the gearing of the truck will now put the RPMs a little low for pulling in top gear at 55MPH it will sometimes feel that its lugging when at 1400RPM. IMO the normal RPM Maxidynes seam to like 1800 for highway cruising.

Trent

Trent the governer levers inside the pump differ!The pump was basicly the same except for this cam and engine parts were the same turbo was lkly diffrent.

My brother had a dozer that he repower with a 5.9 cummins so he said that where he got it they told him they could not start it. so he said i fix. He pulled the pump and sent it to pump shop and it was found to be ok. He installed and still no start. He pull pump again and said check it out some more. This time he got a paint job and a bill cause they had over looked some thing. I had told him to tell the man that was to work on it to check the timing . It was a 7100 p pump.He install and no start. He pulled engine because it was easy and brought to me. We check and by pulling the injectors and i connected one to the # 1 fuel line and as we turn it over it was injecting fuel on the bottom of the stroke. I told him to pull and take back and to tell the same man that checked the pump timing to call. He never did call but told my brother that the tone wheel did slip. That was hard for them to exsplain why he had it in there 2 times and never checked the timing to the cpl. That is the first thing that should have been done.

We had our local pump guy come over and bring his plunger tool over and he reset it with that after we got it to the shop it was in a remote location at the time and had very little for toolage, He said i was off by only 2 degrees not bad for a shot in the dark! i was kind a strutin about over that one!Ya get lucky some times so ya got to make hay while the sun shines!To bad it don't happen more often.

Glad Tony Came back At the garage!They would hav lost a true talent had he stayed away

Both ways of timing is great and the end is the same the only thing with the hipressure pump way is it is and so many guys is not clean with the other way of timing and will get dirt in the fuel system. But the end will be the same. For many years that is the way mack recomened to time and that was called port closing by Bosch. The electric pump came out in about 79 or 80 and was so simple for some but we all dont got one.That is the same way with timing the robert Bosch pump you can use the light or buzzer or you can use the little plastic indicator like they had years ago and now cummins is using it on the 5.9 and 8.3 engine. The light is better only because the plastic indicator can break easy and it is about 70.00 to by. The one thing you need to remember about the electric pump is if you have a barrel and plunger that has a lot of wear on it it will take along time to shut off and that could cause you to set it too slow on the timing. glenn

For me its easier to pull out my blow tube and pop out the delivery vale than to drag the dam machine out of moth balls!The light thing is ok as long as the tone wheel hasent sliped I had that once I ended up turning the pump by hand till I could see the fuel just start to rise on no 1 cyl slamed the pump gear back in with the engine on the timng mark and it ran fine!

As would I, FJH. High pressure test equipment need periodic recalibration to be accurate. Too much trust is placed into a tool without regard to it's accuracy many times. Example: How many mechanics send their torque wrenches in for calibration over it's life cycle?

My eyeballs do not require outside calibration to see what is right and not. In this fuel example, if fuel is flowing from the missing delivery valve in the injection pump, and your timing pointer is indicating correct reference, something else needs adjusted. This is where the round cover on the timing cover and the bolts through the gear come into play! When the diesel fuel stops flowing at the instant the pointer is referenced to the correct marking on the harmonic balancer, the engine is in time.

I would still send the pump and injectors into a shop for calibration together. The injectors will come back marked with which cylinder they are to be installed into, (usually). This is because each individual plunger and barrel inside the pump housing is adjustable for stoke output. As the plungers and barrels wear from usage, they deliver less output. This can be adjusted by loosening lockscrews holding the discharge adjustment. the barrel is then rotated and calibrated for a specific "pump shot" at a predetermined pressure within the adjustment range.

What I'm saying here is that you know little about the pump you have now installed. It is not calibrated for the injection nozzels it is running. You stand a chance of burning, or washing the engine and neither is what you want to do!

It is great you were able to determine the original pump was bad and that you had a spare part.

If we can help further don't hesitate to ask.

Rob

Rob amen to that bro!

good luck with it 13

The problem with sending the pump out is that alot of guys hestate to chuck up old pumps to there equipment for fear of contamination of their equipment! Id be hesitant too!Sounds as thou this a play truck so as long as it runs what the hey!

Back to the shop again hope this works

I have another pump that came with truck all the delivery valves are out of are the as easy changing 123? if so i will throw that pump in

thanks again

Nope wouldn't do that!Like Rob said TOOOO iffy!Check what you have first!

I could be full blawhoee but what you discribe soundslike a timing issue

Having said that !! I have never seen an engine like this just start puffing out gray smoke !Its usually a gradual thing if a fuel pump fails. or a miss on one cyl or quits all together.Its kind of a mistery problem you have here.Turbo OK???!