John3406 Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 Any easy way to set the timing on the inj pump. Since i put a new cam in it the gear that drives the inj pump could be off a tooth or half tooth. I rolled the engine over and looked in on side of pump where timing sensor goes in and in one spot its got a cutout. With that cutout visible the marks on flywheel say about 20 degrees. Im assuming thats btdc. It is on cyl number one btdc. Any ideas. I want to make sure its timed right. This is a mechanical motor but back half of pump is electronic. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post fjh Posted February 5, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted February 5, 2021 Assuming the the engine is timed at 20 then if the spade or screw driver like wedge is dead center in the window the engine will be timed to 20 the timing should be stamped on the valve cover Depending on Hp and model year 20 aint far off FOR A MECHANICAL engine! If its A vmac engine the Static timeing should be at anywhere between 6 and 10 You need to clairify vmac or mechanical! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John3406 Posted February 5, 2021 Author Share Posted February 5, 2021 1 hour ago, fjh said: Assuming the the engine is timed at 20 then if the spade or screw driver like wedge is dead center in the window the engine will be timed to 20 the timing should be stamped on the valve cover Depending on Hp and model year 20 aint far off FOR A MECHANICAL engine! If its A vmac engine the Static timeing should be at anywhere between 6 and 10 You need to clairify vmac or mechanical! I already said the back half of pump is electronic. Front half of pump is mechanical. Im assuming thats what you call a vmac. Its a 96 e7-350. I looked on valve cover and cant find the timing. About the only thing you can see is e7-350 and valve setting. One thing i noticed whe setting the valves was the flywheel has marks starting at 45 then goes down to zero. Then no marks till you hit 1/6 valve setting. I think with the slot centered in window im about 15 or 20 degrees btdc right now so i probably need to fine tune the gear. Thanks for the reply Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MACKX Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 I think if it’s a VMAC eng timing is set to #6 with a 7100 Bosch I’ll have to look in the manual...... the cutout your seeing if for that timing sensor tool to see ...... hopefully Joey Mack chimes in here .... I’ve only done a couple where I had to set it up without marks being made and had the luxury of the timing tool being around from an old Mack dealer man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John3406 Posted February 6, 2021 Author Share Posted February 6, 2021 The pump i have is a p8500 pump. Real similar to a p7100. The 8500 is timed to number 1 cyl. What i did was roll it around and put a timing pin out of a p7100 i had laying on the shelf . It slipped right in . Then i loosened up the gear and turned motor to 7.5 and tightened up the gear. Well see if it runs tomorrow. I still need to put turbo and radiator in. One guy toldme set it 6 to 8 deg btdc. Hope he was right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 The 45-0 degree is there for pump timing. there were many settings for pumps based on year, HP, and turbo. It's passed my bedtime, but tomorrow i can post pics from my E-7 book.. Just curious??? is there also a timing indicator on the front of the engine at about 12 O'Clock above the balancer? It will have 2 tabs pointing forward... Looks like "Fangs"... Jojo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John3406 Posted February 6, 2021 Author Share Posted February 6, 2021 2 hours ago, Joey Mack said: The 45-0 degree is there for pump timing. there were many settings for pumps based on year, HP, and turbo. It's passed my bedtime, but tomorrow i can post pics from my E-7 book.. Just curious??? is there also a timing indicator on the front of the engine at about 12 O'Clock above the balancer? It will have 2 tabs pointing forward... Looks like "Fangs"... Jojo Not that i can see. I dont see how having timing marks on the front would work anyway considering the balancer has no key on the hub. Yeah i was surprised about that too when i had it off. The crank is slotted for key but the balancer hub is smooth. I have a e7 book but it just says to use the timing light tool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Joey Mack Posted February 6, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted February 6, 2021 Do you have this book? Page 71 has the info. Hopefully you can read the pic I posted. Is your injection pump ready to install? I am very rusty when it comes to inj. pumps, since I may do one every 5 years or so. But basically, with the pump off, you set the timing mark on the the flywheel . Lets say the timing is 5 degrees, you set the flywheel to 5 1/2 degrees. then with the Kent Moore timing tool, you rotate the pump til both A+B lights are lit at the same time. then install it to the engine. Install 2 bolts in the pump drive gear. re-install the timing tool, and back the engine up about 30+ degrees, and rotate it clockwise slowly until both lights are on at the same time, look at the timing mark on the flywheel at this time and should be right on 5 degrees. If timing is off, roll the engine back again, then forward to the correct timing mark on the flywheel,,, loosen the 2 bolts in the pump gear install 2 long bolts in the 2 open gear holes (unless you have the spanner tool), and use a long screwdriver or skinny bar to rotate the pump ( do not let the engine roll over) until both lights are lit. lock it down, then roll it back 30+ degrees again and then clockwise til lights come on, then timing should be right... I don't know of another, better or easier way,. Mabey someone else can fill in any blanks i created, Jojo 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John3406 Posted February 6, 2021 Author Share Posted February 6, 2021 I just have a 5-101 overhaul book. It says to use the light to time it which i dont have. I didnt take the pump off but i did have to take the gear off to get the cam out. I know deere used the p8500 on some engines and we never used a light to time them. I guess i dont see why the way i timed it wont work but im probably wrong. Wouldn't be the first time😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 this is the tool.. #37077. I was told once that you dont need this tool, you can just look in the hole for the timing marks (teeth). I have never done that, so therefore I am not comfy with it. Mabey someone else can shed some light. To me, inj. timing is criticle, so I leave out as much room for error as possible, and use this tool.. I've yet to burn up an engine or build a wimpy one, just saying...Jojo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John3406 Posted February 6, 2021 Author Share Posted February 6, 2021 I agree the timing is critical. I just never used a light like that before. I suppose i can try to find one. Im not sure how the vmac is different but on alot of engines when we start turning up the fuel to them we advanced the timing some too. That probably wouldn't work on a vmac. It almost reminds mo of the old cat 3406 peec . Half mechanical and half electronic. I threw several of those in the trash and made them all mechanical. Then they would run strong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 The light basically times the pump for removal, bench timing, and installation. so if the light indicates the pump is timed and you bolt it to the engine that is timed as well, in theory, they should be timed. I know you know that, just saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 I found this tool for sale. $430.00... I will keep looking... none on E-Bay right now.. Jojo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John3406 Posted February 6, 2021 Author Share Posted February 6, 2021 My thinking is the way i did it gets it "close enough to run" . The tool probably gets it more precise. I have no problem buying the tool if i need it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 Just type "Kent Moore J 37077-1" and it will come up... good luck.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theakerstwo Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 I have the timing light myself but there is another tool that is cheaper.I used it for a few years before getting the light.On a 5.9 cummins or 8.3 cummins that use the P7100 pump there is a forked adapter that is used.It is plastic and you can shear it if you move the pump when its in the hole checking the timing spade.The last one i bought which was maybe 15 years ago was about 70.00 Quote glenn akers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 I'm glad you saw this Glenn... I tried to help without steering him the wrong way. jojo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 Sorry I didn't notice the vmac mechanical thing at the end of the first post My bad! Anyway john deer and others use a version of this pump as has been mentioned and also mentioned is a plastic lineup tamb that scerws in to the the window where the timing event marker sensor goes ! That in my mind would be adequate to run this engine ! as it were when you first posted you were a tooth off in my opinion 24 static ! I have also had to do this job up a billygoat trail in the bush and had to eye ball this job with no timing light set up and have had good success doing it! as I explained in the first post! YA its nice to have all the tools how ever you got to do what you got to do some times! and these old engines are A LOT more forgiving than the new Mack branded Volvo engine! Just sayin! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John3406 Posted February 7, 2021 Author Share Posted February 7, 2021 20 hours ago, theakerstwo said: I have the timing light myself but there is another tool that is cheaper.I used it for a few years before getting the light.On a 5.9 cummins or 8.3 cummins that use the P7100 pump there is a forked adapter that is used.It is plastic and you can shear it if you move the pump when its in the hole checking the timing spade.The last one i bought which was maybe 15 years ago was about 70.00 Thats the pin i used. I had one in a p7100 pump sitting on the shelf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John3406 Posted February 7, 2021 Author Share Posted February 7, 2021 7 hours ago, fjh said: Sorry I didn't notice the vmac mechanical thing at the end of the first post My bad! Anyway john deer and others use a version of this pump as has been mentioned and also mentioned is a plastic lineup tamb that scerws in to the the window where the timing event marker sensor goes ! That in my mind would be adequate to run this engine ! as it were when you first posted you were a tooth off in my opinion 24 static ! I have also had to do this job up a billygoat trail in the bush and had to eye ball this job with no timing light set up and have had good success doing it! as I explained in the first post! YA its nice to have all the tools how ever you got to do what you got to do some times! and these old engines are A LOT more forgiving than the new Mack branded Volvo engine! Just sayin! Yes it was definitely off because when i pressed the gear on the cam with no key. I think it was about 20 deg. So then i got it to 7 or 7.5. I couldn't read the valve cover tag so hopefully 7 or 7.5 is good enough. If not ill know when i fire it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 (edited) Hope I'm understanding this wrong BUT!If you had no key on the cam and your were out 24 degrees you may still have an issue ! Cam timing and pump timing are two different animals! you can bend a few things if it ain't right!one tooth out on the cam to crank can create havoc! May run but not for long! Besides the proper way to put the cam gear on is to put it in the oven heat to 475 put the cam in the freezer and the gear will just drop on! Just sayin! Edited February 7, 2021 by fjh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John3406 Posted February 8, 2021 Author Share Posted February 8, 2021 59 minutes ago, fjh said: Hope I'm understanding this wrong BUT!If you had no key on the cam and your were out 24 degrees you may still have an issue ! Cam timing and pump timing are two different animals! you can bend a few things if it ain't right!one tooth out on the cam to crank can create havoc! May run but not for long! Besides the proper way to put the cam gear on is to put it in the oven heat to 475 put the cam in the freezer and the gear will just drop on! Just sayin! The cam to crank gear is keyed. The gear on the cam that drives the injection pump is not keyed. So since i put a new cam in it i had to remove injection pump gear so the cam would slide out. Then without a key on grive gear it could be off a half tooth or full tooth. No way to tell. That is why i had to retime injection pump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 Ahh that makes sense now ! Mack supplied the dealers with a big dollar jig to reset the hub when these first came out ! How ever as usual there was a work around with the engine close to or on the static time Install the pump on the engine with the hub just snug or just loose with the spade in the timing window! Install the gear on the hub with the bolts in roughly the center of the slots snug ,then torque the pump center nut! and then recheck and set your timing as described before. pretty easy and can be done in the truck but much easier with the rad out but still doable if you want perfection! 7.5 is close so it should run ok ! And if your content with it fine ! Just sayin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theakerstwo Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 I am looking now at my 96/97 tune up manual and it say for a E7 350 static timing is 5 degrees and 22 with the econovance in advance 1 Quote glenn akers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 That's what I thought too. That's why I used 5 degrees as an example... Now I wish I had done a few dozen more of these in the past... He's getting good help here... jojo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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