NEW E9 Inline Pump, The Holy Grail

[AZB755V8]

Been a while since my last visit but got something to tell.

I have been looking for inline pumps for my E9's for years. Found a few, missed out on a few more. But today I got the Holy Grail of Mack Inline pumps. A new never on an engine PES8P Bosch E9-500 pump from Italy. A Smoking Deal to boot! Actually it is for a Renault 500AE Magnum which is the Mack E9's Europe name when Renault ran the company. Renault was responsible for putting the E9 in French military tanks and transporters rated between 750-900hp. This is probably one of the last new never on an engine pumps in existence. Just had to share something seldom seen or known to still be available. Wild goose chases do turn out well some times, didn't what to tell and junks myself before it was in my greasy hands. By the way there are rebuilt Bosch PE8P 13mm inline pumps available from the same place just not face mounted but a mounting place could be fabricated without to much trouble for Big Horse Power.

Got a real nice BW S400 Turbo and new military nozzles to go with it too. How does a conservative 800hp sound?

[D-Day]

great score I'm glad you were lucky and proud to share it with the rest of who are still hunting for such things

[AZB755V8]

35 minutes ago, D-Day said:

great score I'm glad you were lucky and proud to share it with the rest of who are still hunting for such things

See you got a B755 LS. The one I got has a 866 375hp and a Quad in it. What are you hunting for?

[D-Day]

That sure is a great B755 I have the L cab and its awaiting space in the shop for restoration still gathering missing pieces I found a running 865 maybe 866 but can't get to the numbers just yet to see the air compressor is missing and I also need to figure out power steering mine has a factory shepherd power steering box I was told the air compressor may be different depending on what year and engine number

[AZB755V8]

4 minutes ago, D-Day said:

That sure is a great B755 I have the L cab and its awaiting space in the shop for restoration still gathering missing pieces I found a running 865 maybe 866 but can't get to the numbers just yet to see the air compressor is missing and I also need to figure out power steering mine has a factory shepherd power steering box I was told the air compressor may be different depending on what year and engine number

Only real difference between a 865 & 866 is the injection pump settings and the stamping on the oil pan rail. No difference in the air compressor that I know of think it is a Bendex 500 Trueflow. I may have one laying around. You got the power steering pump? There were several different ones for the V8's. The hardest thing to find is the drive gears for the compressor and pump.

[D-Day]

No power steering pump on the engine either just a block off plate I was hoping to use a triplex trtl 722 that came with a b73 I have but not sure what I will have to do there

[AZB755V8]

9 minutes ago, D-Day said:

No power steering pump on the engine either just a block off plate I was hoping to use a triplex trtl 722 that came with a b73 I have but not sure what I will have to do there

If you still have the 864 it is a double disc clutch. The tranny has to be for a double disc clutch as used on 864/865/866 as the input shaft is longer than a standard Triplex or Quad box. Hope you still have the double disc tranny. If not you will have to go with a newer longer input tranny used behind the newer engines V8 & 6's with that double disc pusher clutch setup. The old single disc will not hold 600ft/lbs of torque.

[D-Day]

The 864 is long gone as well as the original trans  I will measure the input shaft on the triplex for length but I still have plenty of time for that I also need to do a little sheet metal work and convert the windshield seal to the older frame type for the L cab will the E-9 power steering pump work as well as the drive gears and compressor 

[AZB755V8]

2 hours ago, D-Day said:

The 864 is long gone as well as the original trans  I will measure the input shaft on the triplex for length but I still have plenty of time for that I also need to do a little sheet metal work and convert the windshield seal to the older frame type for the L cab will the E-9 power steering pump work as well as the drive gears and compressor 

I would think they are interchangeable little 856cu/in to big E9. they have the same auxiliary drive housing. I have both but never took time to compare the two. 

[Brian L Blaylock]

My two trucks with the 865 have the power steering reservoir made on the pump and the Superliner with the E-9 has a separate reservoir mounted elsewhere does anyone know if this is because of a different engine model or different model truck 

[Vladislav]

Sounds like a cool (oh sorry, hot) deal on that Bosch pump. Renault Magnum was a pretty common truck in Europe but was taken off the production a few years back so I suppose they will leave the highways soon. Actually many trucks already moved to cheaper regions starting from Poland and further East. Also the matter is high costs on the rebuild parts puts many owners of the V8 models to decition to change the truck or an engine. So European E9's has tendency to dissappear in the distant future. Speaking the inline pumps I belive it's quite common part on European spares market. And V8 style is no doubt hens teeth.

A question. How are you going to get 800HP (if not a top secret stuff) using 520HP pump? I grabbed a giant locally a couple months back. Poor shape but cheap. Going to ask a few questions but the project is on a back burner so far.

[AZB755V8]

3 hours ago, Brian L Blaylock said:

My two trucks with the 865 have the power steering reservoir made on the pump and the Superliner with the E-9 has a separate reservoir mounted elsewhere does anyone know if this is because of a different engine model or different model truck 

The difference in steering pumps is the truck not the difference in the engine.

The difference is the steering box oil requirements. The old F, R, U and others had lower oil supply need to operate and the reservoir was attached to the pump. I have a single a double steering box truck with E9's for power. The double steering box pump and separate reservoir is considerably larger than the single steering box unit. 

[AZB755V8]

1 hour ago, Vladislav said:

Sounds like a cool (oh sorry, hot) deal on that Bosch pump. Renault Magnum was a pretty common truck in Europe but was taken off the production a few years back so I suppose they will leave the highways soon. Actually many trucks already moved to cheaper regions starting from Poland and further East. Also the matter is high costs on the rebuild parts puts many owners of the V8 models to decition to change the truck or an engine. So European E9's has tendency to dissappear in the distant future. Speaking the inline pumps I belive it's quite common part on European spares market. And V8 style is no doubt hens teeth.

A question. How are you going to get 800HP (if not a top secret stuff) using 520HP pump? I grabbed a giant locally a couple months back. Poor shape but cheap. Going to ask a few questions but the project is on a back burner so far.

It used to be TOP SECRET stuff. Sort of like keeping the HOT ROD tricks and secrets to gaining horse power in a small block Chevrolet from others. It doesn't matter now to many guys. When there was someone to compete against it mattered. It does matter to the Tractor and Truck sled pulling crowd and much is still secret for huge diesel power. Mack E9's have almost gone out of existence even at those events.

The NEW pump that I just received is calibrated at 500hp & 1900RPM high speed limit but recalibrated is good for 900hp and any RPM up and over 6000 limits. Any mechanical pump has a range of fuel delivery and governor speed that can be set at a reputable injection pump shop.

I am only talking for Mack E9's and if someone want to chime in please do. There are a some here that know more than I do, I hope to learn something as well. The E9 will produce a lot of power if it is taken care of. The length of time it can be producing large amounts of power is dependent on a even larger amount of variables, Temperatures and Pressures are critical, coolant, charge air, intercooling, oil, EGT and on.

This engine was developed and spec'd by a Mack engineer, Steve Trevitz, that was instrumental in the E9 development at Mack Hagerstown. He was the factory E9 Hot Rod Guy. It will make 1500hp and close to 4000ft/lbs of torque @ 4000RPM. So that is double factory maximum governor limits and triple the fuel settings. There is more that is done but this is enough for now. Like sizing turbo, nozzles, fuel lines, charge pump volume and pressure, etc that have to work together.

It starts with the injection pump. It is mainly the size of the plungers and barrels that inject the fuel into the engine. I have 11, 12, 13 and 14mm diameter pumps these are 12 & 14mm pumps. There are even larger pumps available but for competition use only.

Just to say stock unmodified pumps are good for:

11mm (V-Pump)  good to 650hp

12mm (P-Pump)   good to 900hp

13mm (P-Pump)   good to 1500hp this is the one on the engine above.

14mm (P-Pump)   good to 2200-2500hp this is only a race or off road item and is modified.

Alone with that nozzles need to be sized correctly and the all important Turbo.

All of these pumps can make more power but have to be modified and that is the SECRET STUFF in the injection pump shop....

 

[Vladislav]

19 hours ago, AZB755V8 said:

It used to be TOP SECRET stuff. Sort of like keeping the HOT ROD tricks and secrets to gaining horse power in a small block Chevrolet from others. It doesn't matter now to many guys. When there was someone to compete against it mattered. It does matter to the Tractor and Truck sled pulling crowd and much is still secret for huge diesel power. Mack E9's have almost gone out of existence even at those events.

The NEW pump that I just received is calibrated at 500hp & 1900RPM high speed limit but recalibrated is good for 900hp and any RPM up and over 6000 limits. Any mechanical pump has a range of fuel delivery and governor speed that can be set at a reputable injection pump shop.

I am only talking for Mack E9's and if someone want to chime in please do. There are a some here that know more than I do, I hope to learn something as well. The E9 will produce a lot of power if it is taken care of. The length of time it can be producing large amounts of power is dependent on a even larger amount of variables, Temperatures and Pressures are critical, coolant, charge air, intercooling, oil, EGT and on.

This engine was developed and spec'd by a Mack engineer, Steve Trevitz, that was instrumental in the E9 development at Mack Hagerstown. He was the factory E9 Hot Rod Guy. It will make 1500hp and close to 4000ft/lbs of torque @ 4000RPM. So that is double factory maximum governor limits and triple the fuel settings. There is more that is done but this is enough for now. Like sizing turbo, nozzles, fuel lines, charge pump volume and pressure, etc that have to work together.

It starts with the injection pump. It is mainly the size of the plungers and barrels that inject the fuel into the engine. I have 11, 12, 13 and 14mm diameter pumps these are 12 & 14mm pumps. There are even larger pumps available but for competition use only.

Just to say stock unmodified pumps are good for:

11mm (V-Pump)  good to 650hp

12mm (P-Pump)   good to 900hp

13mm (P-Pump)   good to 1500hp this is the one on the engine above.

14mm (P-Pump)   good to 2200-2500hp this is only a race or off road item and is modified.

Alone with that nozzles need to be sized correctly and the all important Turbo.

All of these pumps can make more power but have to be modified and that is the SECRET STUFF in the injection pump shop....

 

Great looking engine you made! And performance described is very impressive.

Also many thanks for the education. I belive the most people who uprade their vehicles above the stock performances do have plenty of secrets to keep. On the other hand any hobby is fun when you share your emotions which in many cases mean sharing your experience and part of know how. I personaly don't pretend on spying the rocket science. My goal is making a truck able to some grade of streets hot rodding. Something able to compete with modern cars producing sound and a bit of smoke at the time. Sure up to reasonable roads speeds. To me it seems the 1st matter is higher revs which would allow you to shift less and prolongate accelerations. I have no idea on how many HP is required to accelerate efficiently probably the more the better but E9 engine alone fitted in a single tractor could be quite "noisy". Actually there are no such vehicles in my country so seems like no need in a really high $$ project. Anything outperforming an avarage modern truck would be good for me.

So as long as I asked above the high revs I would like to know (a bit) above the inside the engine components. Do you need special pistons and rods or the stock parts could survive the trick too? Any difference in the valve springs? Is there a reason to machine the sleeves for larger bore? My block needs total rebuild no doubt and keeping in mind current costs of stock parts even PAI it seems more reasonable to custom order forged pistons which wouldn't be terrible expensive overhere. Doing that I would order them a bit larger OD and rebore old liners instead of bying a new set. That's just thoughts on the pre-plan so far no more. Using old pistons with new sleeves and new piston rings would work for me too since I don't plan highway milage.

Very interesting info on the fuel pumps. From what you posted it turns out any inline pump is at least 12mm barrels. Do you mean 900HP can be achieved if the pump is set for its maximum stroke delivery? I sure would like to learn that figure and 520HP stock stroke delivery either. No strong need to post it now and here. Governor tinkering reason is clear to me. Current way of things tells me that I supposed to dig into E6 Ambac governor myself. And if E9 one would be next in the raw it doesn't seem as a nightmare. At least so far. Is the 13mm barrel pump a stock part to any Mack engine or plungers off another Bosch unit should be used?

[AZB755V8]

If I was planning on putting a HOT E9 in a hobby truck there would be no need to get all kinds of parts, just work with mostly what I have.

If all parts are reusable:

Standard pistons, sleeves. Check diameters and roundness to specifications. Sleeves do crack, check to see if there is any rust scares in the sleeves. Hone the sleeves use new rings. All new bearings, gaskets and seals. "Small Head" bolts these are the better ones. Head bolts do snap on these engines. Do a valve job, check guides. Original valve springs should be fine, have them checked for seat pressure at install height. Maybe shim to increase seat pressure 20-25lbs. Valve seats come loose on E9's with added heat and not driving them properly. Never take your foot off the peddle completely after pulling a long incline. Keep some heat going on the downgrade.

Turn pump up 20% on fuel and 20% on RPM's, that is 255cc on fuel, stock is 212cc for 500hp. Governor from stock 1900 to 2300RPM's. Use the stock injectors and nozzles set to 300Bar. This is good for 625 plus horse power and will run down any other truck on the road. Adding a new Borg Warner SE480, large exhaust wheel Turbo, around 1.18 A/R exhaust housing and that is it. You have to get a clutch capable of holding 3000ft/lbs of torque giving your left leg a workout.

Most inline pumps ether 6 or 8cyl are 10-12mm barrels. 13mm and above sizes are not stock, in most cases, There is a 13mm, PE8P130A pump that is used on the Big Iveco Eurostar in Europe but is a base mount not a flange mount pump as on a Mack. One thing that I need to state DO NOT WORK ON ANY INJECTION PUMP, TAKE IT TO A REPUTABLE PUMP SHOP. You can not do the work without a calibration bench and machine. They will recalibrate the fuel delivery, the governor and pop off pressure for the injectors. There are very few shops that will modify a pump with larger barrels, cam, delivery valves, etc. Never use anything but factory Bosch parts for the pump.

RPM's are not your friend the lower the better. I can say that a T2180 will not shift if you are over 2500RPM's, it will stay in gear until the input speed comes down. 

[Vladislav]

22 hours ago, AZB755V8 said:

If I was planning on putting a HOT E9 in a hobby truck there would be no need to get all kinds of parts, just work with mostly what I have.

If all parts are reusable:

Standard pistons, sleeves. Check diameters and roundness to specifications. Sleeves do crack, check to see if there is any rust scares in the sleeves. Hone the sleeves use new rings. All new bearings, gaskets and seals. "Small Head" bolts these are the better ones. Head bolts do snap on these engines. Do a valve job, check guides. Original valve springs should be fine, have them checked for seat pressure at install height. Maybe shim to increase seat pressure 20-25lbs. Valve seats come loose on E9's with added heat and not driving them properly. Never take your foot off the peddle completely after pulling a long incline. Keep some heat going on the downgrade.

Turn pump up 20% on fuel and 20% on RPM's, that is 255cc on fuel, stock is 212cc for 500hp. Governor from stock 1900 to 2300RPM's. Use the stock injectors and nozzles set to 300Bar. This is good for 625 plus horse power and will run down any other truck on the road. Adding a new Borg Warner SE480, large exhaust wheel Turbo, around 1.18 A/R exhaust housing and that is it. You have to get a clutch capable of holding 3000ft/lbs of torque giving your left leg a workout.

Most inline pumps ether 6 or 8cyl are 10-12mm barrels. 13mm and above sizes are not stock, in most cases, There is a 13mm, PE8P130A pump that is used on the Big Iveco Eurostar in Europe but is a base mount not a flange mount pump as on a Mack. One thing that I need to state DO NOT WORK ON ANY INJECTION PUMP, TAKE IT TO A REPUTABLE PUMP SHOP. You can not do the work without a calibration bench and machine. They will recalibrate the fuel delivery, the governor and pop off pressure for the injectors. There are very few shops that will modify a pump with larger barrels, cam, delivery valves, etc. Never use anything but factory Bosch parts for the pump.

RPM's are not your friend the lower the better. I can say that a T2180 will not shift if you are over 2500RPM's, it will stay in gear until the input speed comes down. 

Very interesting and no doubt worthy. Thanks. But I still have a look at the things from another angle. My idea is not to compete with trucks but with cars. Actually no trucks in the country to compete with. So fun seems doing surprizing driving in the street. Something of a kind nobody expect from a truck. This way the idea of having top RPM's of 4000 looks as the basic point. Maybe I'm wrong and have open mind for arguments. So at this point I wonder what engine parts should I have to spin the engine that high?

The tranny I'm going to couple to the E9 is not T2180. I grabbed T1070 (or TXTLT ?) by a lucky chance and it seems to me that's a perfect unit for my task. You can split it when want to cruise at a certain speed but can shift it through large steps with no splitting. Seems like not a trouble to having high RPM's limit. Another option I have and would go with if have no 12 speed is T2070. It also has long shifts and easy to drive in a tight traffic. I currently have such transmission installed in my R-model. It doesn't suit Econodyne engine really fine but actually the only trouble I have with it is a large hole between the direct and OD. Besides that it's pretty easy driving setup. You can start from 2nd high (a bit lower that 1st high in T2180 or T2090), shift it into 3rd and than into direct. This allows you to drive up to nearly 80km/h comfortable and up to 100km/h or 60MPH if you want. So common drive (sure bobtail) can be provided making just 2 shifts. And currently I have the pump set up to 1800RPM and the engine is 350 HP in-line not V8. If I could find a T2180 unit I wouldn't use it in any of my trucks excepting if I plan moving heavy machinery on a low boy. Instead of that I would couple the rear section of T2180 (with the splitter) to T2060/2070/2080 main box. This would bring me long steps for a city or hot rodding and possibility to split in the cases you need it. Actually it would make a kind of T2070 twelve speed in T200 family. IDK why Mack didn't produce such setup. Probably because of different tendency in the trucking industy at the time.

300 bar injectors set to? Sounds very high and that would move the ignition point far backwards along the crank angle due to the plungers leak. What is the standard E9 injector crack pressure? Maybe I'm too panic and 300 bar doesn't offset much? Intersting point on the valve springs shims. Never heard about. I was told of tungsten washers holding the springs but never saw in real. Looks like not a trouble to make if any reason to. Good points on the clutch and the turbo. Is turbo just a pay and get deal or a custom job?

Swapping plungers or a cam in a pump is not a trouble overhere. There's a guy who makes such works. Sure having a test bench etc. Personally I had one Mack pump disassembled, sandblasted (!) and painted the body, than reassembled and even calibrated (to some grade) with no bench. The engine was on a stand when I worked with the pump. So I put 2 more marks on the flywheel to see OT for not only 1st but 2nd, 3rd etc cylinders and set plunger closing angles. Also you can see the moment a plunger opens the input hole which means the angle of ending the injection. So you can set the stroke delivery by that observation. Not actual dynamical delivery but at least geometrical. Unfortunately I didn't know the condition of the pump (it was 70+ yo at the time) so brang it to the shop and put on a bench anyway. The guy corrected 2 plungers adding stroke length and checked the maximum delivery which was found set wrong (20% less than the spec). But he definitely got surprized from what he observed at the bench after hearing what I told I made to the pump

Special thanks for the pump type tips. I will do my research on the Iveco pump. Too probably it's possible to find such unit here and use its plungers (and the cam shaft?) in E9 pump housing but so far I'm not sure I will need 13mm barrels.

[brettj3876]

On 7/22/2021 at 7:22 PM, AZB755V8 said:

If I was planning on putting a HOT E9 in a hobby truck there would be no need to get all kinds of parts, just work with mostly what I have.

If all parts are reusable:

Standard pistons, sleeves. Check diameters and roundness to specifications. Sleeves do crack, check to see if there is any rust scares in the sleeves. Hone the sleeves use new rings. All new bearings, gaskets and seals. "Small Head" bolts these are the better ones. Head bolts do snap on these engines. Do a valve job, check guides. Original valve springs should be fine, have them checked for seat pressure at install height. Maybe shim to increase seat pressure 20-25lbs. Valve seats come loose on E9's with added heat and not driving them properly. Never take your foot off the peddle completely after pulling a long incline. Keep some heat going on the downgrade.

Turn pump up 20% on fuel and 20% on RPM's, that is 255cc on fuel, stock is 212cc for 500hp. Governor from stock 1900 to 2300RPM's. Use the stock injectors and nozzles set to 300Bar. This is good for 625 plus horse power and will run down any other truck on the road. Adding a new Borg Warner SE480, large exhaust wheel Turbo, around 1.18 A/R exhaust housing and that is it. You have to get a clutch capable of holding 3000ft/lbs of torque giving your left leg a workout.

Most inline pumps ether 6 or 8cyl are 10-12mm barrels. 13mm and above sizes are not stock, in most cases, There is a 13mm, PE8P130A pump that is used on the Big Iveco Eurostar in Europe but is a base mount not a flange mount pump as on a Mack. One thing that I need to state DO NOT WORK ON ANY INJECTION PUMP, TAKE IT TO A REPUTABLE PUMP SHOP. You can not do the work without a calibration bench and machine. They will recalibrate the fuel delivery, the governor and pop off pressure for the injectors. There are very few shops that will modify a pump with larger barrels, cam, delivery valves, etc. Never use anything but factory Bosch parts for the pump.

RPM's are not your friend the lower the better. I can say that a T2180 will not shift if you are over 2500RPM's, it will stay in gear until the input speed comes down. 

 

You have a lot of knowledge

I bet that S480 spools instantly with that 1.18 A/R. Timing set in the high 20s running those high rpms? I know a lot of pulling 12V are set in the mid 30s

 

We just converted vmac1 to fully mechanical. The guy that built it builds hot rod 12v cummins for sled pulling. I don't exactly what he did to the pump i do know he put a quick rate cam in it and different p/b still 12mm. We're getting it dialed in now. We need to adjust the fuel plate it's only getting 35psi now and 40 with old pump before. Anxious to how it pulls. Timing set at 18 but egt came up quick so it needs a few more deg 20-21 will do.

 

S475 1.32, stg2 injectors from rochester diesel

Edited July 24, 2021 by brettj3876

[AZB755V8]

I am going to start another topic: Hot Dogs, Can't Run Stay on the Porch.

I stayed off this forum for some time from the shake-up but want liven up things a little with some like minded Mackholics. Lets talk Hot Dogs!!

[Vladislav]

5 hours ago, AZB755V8 said:

I am going to start another topic: Hot Dogs, Can't Run Stay on the Porch.

I stayed off this forum for some time from the shake-up but want liven up things a little with some like minded Mackholics. Lets talk Hot Dogs!!

Shakes happen by bumps down any road and if you keep the track it means you're settled well in the saddle.

Thanks for continue discussing the subject.