Boxler1066 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 Can anyone tell me definitively if a model year 2003 Mack AI-300A motor with serial# 2SO814-11GBA15672YP1 can be converted into a Mack E7-460 with serial# 901373-11GBA4907P2…? The AI motor is in a truck we feed cows with and it’s real sick and needs a rebuild…..has coolant going in oil… pretty good blow by, sluggish, smokes black, not very responsive, doesn’t start as well as a decent motor would particularly when it’s colder outside and it’s got a lot of hours of use on it and in addition to that the motor was really not enough horsepower from the start….in addition this motor always seemed real luggish, not very snappy, tended to act like it’s always laboring and the turbo gets hot very quickly….all these issues in comparison to our other Mack e7 atecs that all seem more snappy and don’t always act like they are laboring more than what I’d consider normal Im told pistons and sleeves are same….it needs heads because ones on it have been milled beyond spec…so I’m told to get heads with either casting number 732GB5252M or casting number 732GB5341M….so what else would be different? I’m assuming injectors and turbo for sure but I’m not sure if EUP’s have to be changed or camshaft has to be changed because I’ve gotten different opinions on them from a few people I’m told the cam has to be changed because the AI cam is profiled so some exhaust goes back into cylinder for pollution???…Something about the AI motors have a different profiled cam to meet emissions and I’m also told there’s a bigger less restrictive exhaust manifold that should go on it and also computer would need to be reprogrammed or replaced??? I just want advice from someone who knows for certain if this is do able and if so what specifically has to be done Also can anyone tell me more about EUP’s…are they either good or bad or are there cases where they can have intermittent issues or they loose spec to where they don’t deliver proper fuel delivery and fuel rate in conjunction with proper timing? Lastly I’m putting a new oil pump in… which one should I get…aren’t there some pumps that pump more volume?? If I don’t have to replace EUP’s I’m planning on new alignment dowels for them and also check rollers and pins for wear or any other issues there….do they sell roller/pin kits for the EUP’s Any help would be much appreciated…I gotta get after this project because this is one of our feedtrucks that feeds our cows daily…with this truck being down if I come across a situation where our other feedtruck has any major issue I don’t have an ideal option for a backup truck to feed the cows with and they definitely have to get fed every day even if it means I got to use a pitchfork and a wheelbarrow and that would be tough seeing how there are close to 4000 head to feed every day😁🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boxler1066 Posted February 13 Author Share Posted February 13 Oh….one other thing…with a 460 being quite a bit more horsepower are the piston cooling jets the same size? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeH Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 (edited) What year is the E7? Would help to know if it's an eup engine. What chassis is the donor engine from and what chassis needs it? Different chassis use different bulkhead connectors for mating the wiring between the engine and vehicle harnesses. There's a very thorough writeup on here regarding the AI delete. Cam, exhaust manifold, turbo/exhaust pipe, etc. What transmission is in the truck right now? You need to make sure the trans can take the extra power. Also a 300hp drive shaft is weaker than a 460 driveshaft. Edited February 13 by JoeH 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeH Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 read this before you rebuild your ai300. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeH Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 I don't see any reason why the engine wouldn't fit in your truck and work, assuming they're both ETECH or ASET AI engines. Might be minor differences on ambient air temperature sensors, but you can probably swap computers and make the 460 think it's the 300. Once again assuming the 460 is an ETECH. Turbo and injectors and a few other mechanical parts may be different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeH Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 Early ETECH engines put the engine computer on the passenger side of the engine, under the turbo. Later ones are on the driver side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boxler1066 Posted February 14 Author Share Posted February 14 So the truck with the bad AI-300A engine has EUP’s and it is a 2003 Mack MR688S with an Allison…I forget now…I think it might be an HT4560…I’ll have to check to confirm that,…it has the computer located on the passenger side up higher…. kinda about the level of the intake and water manifolds…it has no cooler lines running to it where the computer on the E7-460 I believe is located down lower and if memory serves me right I believe it has cooler lines hooked to it and the 460 also has EUP’s So to fully explain what’s going on here is I’ve been referencing converting that AI-300A engine into an E7-460 for this reason…..we have 1999 mack RD688S with an E7-460 that we use on the farm and I decided to use the information from that E7-460 by using that trucks VIN and also engine ID tag as my reference to determine the difference between these 2 engines….I did this thinking this truck has always been good and reliable and has the extra power that I wanted our MR688 to have…..since the MR motor needs an overhaul I figured it would be a good time to convert to a higher horsepower level. As far as the Allison and driveshafts and power train goes I don’t think it’s anything to be concerned about in this particular situation….the truck stays in the farmyard all day and never has to go down the road….basically it never really exceeds 20mph and doesn’t have to deal with any major hills or rapid acceleration or takeoff on grades or anything like that….where the lack of power is my main issue on the AI-300A motor is has to deal with the load put on the motor to run the live hydrostatic pump and motor that runs the feed mixer on the back of the truck…..this mixer is mixing up to 35,000 pounds of corn silage, haylage and grains all at once in the mixer and that takes some power…..and to get the mixer to run the optimum speed to mix the feed ration adequately the math says the engine rpm should be 1600ish rpm range while the truck is being loaded with all the feed ingredients and also around that same 1600 rpm range offloads the mixer at about the right rate…. Problem is while mixing and offloading currently I generally can’t get the motor up much past 1100-1200 rpm range all the while the truck is laboring, throwing moderate to medium black smoke stream…. air cleaner is good… fuel filters good….air to air is good and pressure tested…. no air leaks from turbo compressor outlet to cylinder heads…has a new turbo on it…. has a new fuel transfer pump running proper pressure with a new hand primer pump on transfer pump and checked for air bubbles at transfer pump inlet with a clear glass sight glass to ensure transfer pump isn’t sucking air in fuel line from fuel tank to transfer pump inlet and see no indication of air…..I did all the above listed diagnostic about a year ago and it’s getting worse….i can tell the motor is just sick and it’s tired….its had a lot of hours put on it since we bought it used and I’m not certain of its history because I don’t know that the tach, odometer or computer are original when we bought it… but its got a fair amount of blow by,….coolant in oil and it’s always been sluggish but even more so now than when we got it…I think I would have considered looking for a complete descent E7-460 atec or E7-400 atec and then rebuilt that and put it in but when you weigh it all out I don’t know I’d be much farther ahead… far as I know if I bought a used one it may have needed a cam as well or the charger and injectors etc…etc… may have had needed to be replaced upon rebuild plus all the extra work of a complete engine swap and all the little differences you always seem to come across on a swap from one model to another vs an in frame rebuild of the sick AI motor so all that kinda got me to this point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 12 hours ago, Boxler1066 said: So the truck with the bad AI-300A engine has EUP’s and it is a 2003 Mack MR688S with an Allison…I forget now…I think it might be an HT4560…I’ll have to check to confirm that,…it has the computer located on the passenger side up higher…. kinda about the level of the intake and water manifolds…it has no cooler lines running to it where the computer on the E7-460 I believe is located down lower and if memory serves me right I believe it has cooler lines hooked to it and the 460 also has EUP’s So to fully explain what’s going on here is I’ve been referencing converting that AI-300A engine into an E7-460 for this reason…..we have 1999 mack RD688S with an E7-460 that we use on the farm and I decided to use the information from that E7-460 by using that trucks VIN and also engine ID tag as my reference to determine the difference between these 2 engines….I did this thinking this truck has always been good and reliable and has the extra power that I wanted our MR688 to have…..since the MR motor needs an overhaul I figured it would be a good time to convert to a higher horsepower level. As far as the Allison and driveshafts and power train goes I don’t think it’s anything to be concerned about in this particular situation….the truck stays in the farmyard all day and never has to go down the road….basically it never really exceeds 20mph and doesn’t have to deal with any major hills or rapid acceleration or takeoff on grades or anything like that….where the lack of power is my main issue on the AI-300A motor is has to deal with the load put on the motor to run the live hydrostatic pump and motor that runs the feed mixer on the back of the truck…..this mixer is mixing up to 35,000 pounds of corn silage, haylage and grains all at once in the mixer and that takes some power…..and to get the mixer to run the optimum speed to mix the feed ration adequately the math says the engine rpm should be 1600ish rpm range while the truck is being loaded with all the feed ingredients and also around that same 1600 rpm range offloads the mixer at about the right rate…. Problem is while mixing and offloading currently I generally can’t get the motor up much past 1100-1200 rpm range all the while the truck is laboring, throwing moderate to medium black smoke stream…. air cleaner is good… fuel filters good….air to air is good and pressure tested…. no air leaks from turbo compressor outlet to cylinder heads…has a new turbo on it…. has a new fuel transfer pump running proper pressure with a new hand primer pump on transfer pump and checked for air bubbles at transfer pump inlet with a clear glass sight glass to ensure transfer pump isn’t sucking air in fuel line from fuel tank to transfer pump inlet and see no indication of air…..I did all the above listed diagnostic about a year ago and it’s getting worse….i can tell the motor is just sick and it’s tired….its had a lot of hours put on it since we bought it used and I’m not certain of its history because I don’t know that the tach, odometer or computer are original when we bought it… but its got a fair amount of blow by,….coolant in oil and it’s always been sluggish but even more so now than when we got it…I think I would have considered looking for a complete descent E7-460 atec or E7-400 atec and then rebuilt that and put it in but when you weigh it all out I don’t know I’d be much farther ahead… far as I know if I bought a used one it may have needed a cam as well or the charger and injectors etc…etc… may have had needed to be replaced upon rebuild plus all the extra work of a complete engine swap and all the little differences you always seem to come across on a swap from one model to another vs an in frame rebuild of the sick AI motor so all that kinda got me to this point In my opinion that engine if it was fresh should easily do the job! After all your not racing it! If it has issues Fix the issues and leave the rest alone! Black smoke indicates lack of air or too much fuel! Have you checked for boost leaks !??? does it have a lot of blow by? For the job its doing it sounds like a lot of work to go thru to get a basic job done! When all you need to address is address the issues IE: a set of a set of injectors or a turbo and or some boost leaks! Whole lot cheaper and less time consuming! Also the 300 has a pretty large torque curve due to the fact that there is and Allison behind it! 460 not so much! I have seen a 427 with an Allison ! I am just thinking about time vers result here! What you purposing is doable but worth while ????? Just saying! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boxler1066 Posted February 14 Author Share Posted February 14 No boost leaks….I inspected all the piping and there is no issues with the piping and it has relatively new silicone hoses throughout the turbo piping and they all look good…no tears or abrasion damage to them…and the air to air cooler was pressure tested and that’s good…it had a new teflon lined hose from intake to air compressor inlet and that hose looks fine and II inspected the intake manifold gaskets all the way around each port with a good flashlight and seen no indication of a gasket being blown out and also sprayed ether around the intake ports while it was idling and no change in engine rpm so it doesn’t appear to have any leaks whatsoever and it had a new turbo put on it about a year ago and I pulled air cleaner pipe off recently to see if turbo felt like it had issues and it seems perfectly fine….If it’s getting too much fuel what would cause that? It has a mack reman computer put on it a couple years ago and the mack dealer programmed it given the trucks vin # and engine ID tag information….truck has a complete new wiring harness from front bumper to rear bumper… new cab, engine, transmission and chassis harness If It’s getting too much fuel what would cause that? the engine has considerably more blow by than normal I have oil pan off and all the lobes are nice and smooth… no indication of damage from a bad cam follower and same goes for eup lobes…I haven’t measured them yet with a dial indicator but I’m going to upon rebuild if I stick with keeping it a 300 to make sure it’s good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boxler1066 Posted February 14 Author Share Posted February 14 I noticed a couple people responded about putting a 460 in the truck…just to clarify…what I meant by AI-300A to E7-460 conversion was what it would take to make a AI-300A into a E7-460🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 46 minutes ago, Boxler1066 said: No boost leaks….I inspected all the piping and there is no issues with the piping and it has relatively new silicone hoses throughout the turbo piping and they all look good…no tears or abrasion damage to them…and the air to air cooler was pressure tested and that’s good…it had a new teflon lined hose from intake to air compressor inlet and that hose looks fine and II inspected the intake manifold gaskets all the way around each port with a good flashlight and seen no indication of a gasket being blown out and also sprayed ether around the intake ports while it was idling and no change in engine rpm so it doesn’t appear to have any leaks whatsoever and it had a new turbo put on it about a year ago and I pulled air cleaner pipe off recently to see if turbo felt like it had issues and it seems perfectly fine….If it’s getting too much fuel what would cause that? It has a mack reman computer put on it a couple years ago and the mack dealer programmed it given the trucks vin # and engine ID tag information….truck has a complete new wiring harness from front bumper to rear bumper… new cab, engine, transmission and chassis harness If It’s getting too much fuel what would cause that? the engine has considerably more blow by than normal I have oil pan off and all the lobes are nice and smooth… no indication of damage from a bad cam follower and same goes for eup lobes…I haven’t measured them yet with a dial indicator but I’m going to upon rebuild if I stick with keeping it a 300 to make sure it’s good Bad or sticking injectors! As for boost leaks! The Best way to check for leaks is to pressure up the the whole engine ! build an and adaptor to plug off the intercooler at the turbo side! Apply Shop air regulated to 35 psi thru the after cooler and engine ! And turn the engine by hand till pressure starts to show on the boost gauge assuming it has one! Believe it or not! there is a point in the engine cycle the everything is closed momentarily! when you hit this point! you will find almost any leak you want to find even bloby past the rings and valve guides you will hear from the oil filler neck! ! Is the compressor plumbed into the intake hose ? These fail at the Joints at the hoses where they connect to the manifold and the compressor (common failure} ! A look see is not the best way to check!In my opinion you have one of three things there , in order of importance .> a Bad boost leak , lazy turbo ,or bad injectors !however I'm not there so I can't say for sure! don't apply the parts Cannon untill you confirm the boost leak theory properly! The lazy turbo is a tough call cause its its the most expensive and doesn't happen often ! last resort! Just sayin! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.