RoadwayR

It doesn't make economic sense for a company like Ford to build a full line of medium/heavy trucks. Whatever they make per heavy truck is minuscule compared to what they can make on a light truck, and Ford is far better at running high volume assembly lines then the type of line required for a specialized heavy truck. KTP generates FAR more profits now than it ever did as a medium/heavy truck facility. The 'halo' effect and 'one stop commercial vehicle shopping' are minor factors. I have been in fleets for over 30 years and it isn't something we consider much at all anymore. We have found the best mix for us is GM for class 3, Ford and Isuzu for class 4/5, and Freightliner for for class 6 and larger.

I remember when Ford took a stake in Cummins, and this thread got me thinking about those days. There was a lot of speculation that Ford was going to steal away the B5.9 from Dodge for the F-250/350, but the truth was Ford needed medium duty diesels for the F series and Cargo. The Cat 3208, DDA 8.2L, and the New Holland diesels were all being phased out. Around 1993 the B5.9 and C8.3 started showing up in Ford mediums, painted gray with Ford emblems on their valve covers. The 5.9 was called the 'FD1060', the 8.3 was the 'FD1460'. Worked out O.K.. It was around that time I was thinking Ford was getting serious about medium/heavy trucks, the new Louisville's (HN80) were on the way and if Ford were to exercise their Cummins stock options they could conceivably be a real player. Could have been...... I had high hopes for the HN80, but it seemed the project was about 3 years late coming out, and when it did it was in fits and starts. A really nice looking long nosed conventional was trotted out to all the truck shows, but it would seem Ford only built the one (anyone know where it is?). My people never bought any so I had no first hand experience with the new Louisville's, but word was they were not that great. We continued to buy a lot of Cummins powered medium duty F series, but around the summer of '96 things were starting to get downright weird. Rumors were flying around that Ford was going to drop the all medium F's and Cargo's for 1997. That didn't make any sense at all, unless the HN80 was to include some medium duty models. It would seem that was the plan, but it sure didn't work out that way. I was very surprised to learn that Ford was selling out their heavy truck line to Freightliner so soon after introducing the new Louisville line. I could see Ford wanting out of that business, but wouldn't it have made more sense to do so before spending all that effort on the HN80? I guess at the last minute Ford decided to keep the medium duty F's around, but they moved production to Mexico and drastically cut back on options. At this point we gave up on Ford mediums, we couldn't spec. them for most of our applications, and our spec. writer said the quality of the Mexican built F's was atrocious. Freightliner here we come, bought some GM's and International's too.. A medium duty HN80 eventually did come out, more or less, as the Freightliner Acterra. Ford stuck a 1999 Super Duty cab on the 1980-vintage F series medium duty chassis and that was the 'new' 2000 F-750 and that kept them in the game until the 'Blue Diamond' trucks came out. I still think that was a good idea for Ford, but due to some diesel engine problems that deal went down the tubes and now Ford is back with this seemingly half-hearted in-house 'new' Super Duty 650/750. GM will move in as Navistar's new joint venture medium duty customer, and I think that will eventually be a pretty big deal for both of them.

I am thinking the real significance here is that it spells the end for the MaxxForce 7 engine. The MAN-based engines will rely on castings from TUPY, maybe MAN too considering the VW deal. I guess the DT's are gone now too?

Are you suggesting Ford buy Cummins? I see no reason why they would want it, Ford manufactures all their own diesels in-house.

With regards to Cummins, this isn't good news. As we all know, International went with Cummins because because of NAV's failed EGR strategy. It was a good move, kept them in the game when they had no alternative. But, I never thought NAV looked at Cummins as a long term solution. The 6.7L Cummins has replaced the MaxxForce 7, but I am hearing rumors that GM's Duramax may soon find it's way under International hoods. The excellent N11 and N13 are in a number of Internationals, and with this new JV no doubt more MAN and Scania diesels are coming. It all fits with Troy Clarke's plans on building and relying on strong JV's. Where is Cummins in NAV's long term plans? Over at DTNA, Freightliner's mediums will soon have the Detroit nee Benz DD5 and DD8 diesels, and you know what their dealers will be pushing. At least Cummins will always have Dodge. Or Ram. Or FCA, whatever it's called now.... Nissan too. They will probably find themselves making more money on pickup truck engines if they are not already. Maybe NAV won't be missed after all. Oh, and a few comments on Westport: Not sure where they are going, Cummins is doing CNG in-house now. I can't figure out why someone would think converting a heavy slow turning compression-ignition diesel engine into a spark-ignition gaseous fueled engine is a great idea. Only advantage I see is ease of installation. Large gasoline-type engines such as PSI's 8.8L make much more sense. BTW- Westport recently gobbled up Impco, maybe they are looking to become the big gaseous fuel engine components supplier. VW might eventually have to spin off the truck operation to keep their hopelessly inefficient auto business afloat. I don't see that as a problem.

Was hoping that some of the Iveco line of heavier trucks would eventually come to North America wearing the Ram brand, but I guess there is no hope of that happening now.

Are the International-built DT derivatives all gone now?

Let's hope VW does not eventually ruin Scania!

I have to think Volvo would more likely look to divesting it's construction machinery business than any of it's truck brands. What would Renault or Mack be worth to anyone else? Probably take many years before either one could operate independently of Volvo. Sure, VW Trucks wants to have a big presence in the North American truck market. They really want to out Daimler Daimler, and that's not going to happen unless VW Trucks can somehow rival Freightliner. I think VW had their chance with Navistar and are probably more interested in PACCAR now, but PACCAR is going to be expensive and there could be regulatory issues in both the U.S. and Europe. Let's not forget that VW is likely the most inefficient major vehicle manufacturer in the world at present, and their diesel scandal is far from over.

Me too. If Navistar gets taken over, I hope it is GM for no other reason than it stays U.S. based. Given International's and Iveco's history in Australia, these deal makes perfect sense.

Lots of engines in those, in addition to the Toro-Flow diesels. Chevy big and small block gas V-8's, Chevy straight 6's, 4-53, 6V-53, and a few 6V-71 Detroits. They stayed in production through 1980, but sometime after the mid-70's they used the Chevy gas V-8's exclusively.

This was, more or less, the U.S. equivalent of the Bedford TK/KH: These trucks were offered in medium and heavy models, both gasoline and diesel powered. The 6V-53 was optional many years, though the particular truck featured in this video was powered by one of GMC's gasoline V-6's, likely the 351 cubic inch version.

6V53's were pretty popular in the U.S.. They were the standard diesels in larger medium duty (class 7) GMC and Chevy conventionals and tilt-cabs in the 60's and 70's. International offered the 6V53 in many trucks as well, along their own DV550's. Saw a lot of the Detroit's in construction equipment as well.

Detroit powered KM's were rare.

Shades of International Harvester in 1980.

I agree, but there is Navistar's debt issue. It makes them vulnerable. Better to agree on a deal with beneficial terms rather than be taken over with your back against the wall.

You know, I am not sure how much of the North American class 4/5 truck market LCF's are capable of taking. I have read were domestic class 4/5 LCF sales have doubled since 2010, and are running up 6% so far this year. As of now, you have Isuzu, Hino, and Fuso in the market, and none of these players has a very large distribution/dealer network. Throwing several hundred Chevy Commercial dealers into the game might make things very interesting. Also consider that before 2010, you also had a large number of Chevy, GMC, and Nissan UD dealers selling this type of truck. With those dealers gone, sales volume still increased significantly 2010-present. I too think a bias towards 6.5L+ diesels as used in the domestic conventional class 4/5 trucks was holding LCF sales back, but I think that is coming to an end. These engines are too large and powerful for economical class 4/5 use, and truck buyers may be starting to figure this out. Regardless, coming CAFE standards will eventually render those large diesels obsolete in class 4/5 anyway. Don't ignore the significance of the upcoming Detroit Diesel DD5 Freightliner and 5.2L Isuzu F series in class 6 either.

When Ford announced in late 2011 that they were bailing out of the 'Blue Diamond' JV with Navistar and building their own class 6/7 truck, the aluminum cab F-150 was still 3 years away. The Super Duty had just been updated for the last time, so I see where it made sense for Ford to at least launch the new 650/750 with the basic steel Super Duty cab. Now that the Super Duty 250-550 is changing over to the aluminum F-150 cab, I don't think it makes much sense to indefinitely continue the low volume 650/750 with the old steel cab, particularly since the 450/550 will be built in the same plant with the aluminum cab. So, my guess is the 650/750 will probably get the aluminum F-150 cab in a few years. I don't see near enough volume to come up with a dedicated cab for the 650/750.

My guess? The 650 and 750 will eventually get a version of the new 2017 aluminum Super Duty cab. Don't think an F-850 is coming.

Good point about Oshkosh's military business.

For a long time Navistar looked like the likely candidate, but didn't Renscher comment some time ago that VW was not necessarily looking for a large volume truck manufacturer? One would think if Navistar was the intended target or partner VW would have moved on it by now. You can't ignore that Navistar seems to be building a substantial relationship with GM (not a surprise considering all the ex-GM executives running NAV now) and I think we have not seen the full extent of that partnership. PACCAR would seem to be more of the type of partner VW is looking for, but could DAF be integrated into MAN and Scania eventually? What about Oshkosh?

Looks like they smoothed out the cab some, maybe the windshield has a bit more rake to it. I wonder if the short conventional TranStar will be similarly updated. I hear after the LT comes the CV TerraStar replacement.

That's funny because I remember a couple of trucking firms in the Los Angeles area back in the early 70's that ran Isuzu conventionals. I think it was Smiser and DeSalvo.

Wan't the CH cab recently revised? Thought they made it a bit longer. Wish they would go back to the original doors, I never liked Ford Super Duty the look of the dipped beltline.

Why did Nissan spend money on their NV1500/2500/3500 instead of bringing the Master to the U.S.?