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Rob

Fuller RTO-12513:

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Here is a photo of the reduction gear in the back section of the transmission. The power side, (my assumption) is much more shiny and showing a bit of wear in comparison to the same tooth backside. I assume the "coast" side of the gear which is powered in reverse.

Power side:

image.jpeg.c0dc03e9fa55b4cf0a118c515f53bf59.jpeg

Coast side:

image.jpeg.4b1ac6a1f470372a8333800827899ed1.jpeg

There was only one spring in the syncronizer and the other two were against the magnets meaning one spring against the rear magnet, one against the amidships magnet. None are busted and are the same length.

I'm thinking that gear along with it's mating countershafts are worn out but the parts store says they can be reused. These photos are out of the solvent tank so the gear is much cleaner now than it was when I carted it to order the rebuild kit.

The main symptom with this transmission was a "growl" in the low range that immediately went away with a shift to high range. The overdrive split of this transmission was very quiet without the characteristic "whine" it was known for.

I'm looking for additional opinions because if the gears are not going to be any quieter when reassembled in low range, I'm going to order the upgraded gearset which would essentially make the transmission an RTO-14613.

Kind of enjoyable working with this old transmission as have never been into one before.

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Rob if It were me And its going to be more a toy than a work truck I would reuse them If they show no metal coming out at the root of the tooth ( PITTING ) I would be inclined to use em! Just me!

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Those photos are absolute worst of the gear. Minor pitting but no "spalling" of metal anyplace. I've not disassembled the front box at all but plan to yet. Spinning the main shaft by hand and locking each gear into position is smooth and steady.  Neither the sliding clutches, nor the gear faces are mashed flat and what I can see looks good. There really is no noise or scraping in the front section. The "growl" I mention was the same in forward or reverse. About the same pitch both directions.

One thing I did notice is both countershaft bearing races in the front slid from the shafts by gravity. I've been told they should take just over hand pressure to install but these slip right on and off. The left countershaft pushed right out of it's bearing by hand in the rear housing where I had to pull the right one from the shaft with a puller.

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2 hours ago, fjh said:

Rob if It were me And its going to be more a toy than a work truck I would reuse them If they show no metal coming out at the root of the tooth ( PITTING ) I would be inclined to use em! Just me!

2nd that.

drive-side polish will create a minor harmony. Absence of X-hatch means the oil “hold” on you contact surfaces has been reduced and your on your way to losing the hardened surface to a spalling pit.......maybe in the next decade?

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2 hours ago, Rob said:

Those photos are absolute worst of the gear. Minor pitting but no "spalling" of metal anyplace. I've not disassembled the front box at all but plan to yet. Spinning the main shaft by hand and locking each gear into position is smooth and steady.  Neither the sliding clutches, nor the gear faces are mashed flat and what I can see looks good. There really is no noise or scraping in the front section. The "growl" I mention was the same in forward or reverse. About the same pitch both directions.

One thing I did notice is both countershaft bearing races in the front slid from the shafts by gravity. I've been told they should take just over hand pressure to install but these slip right on and off. The left countershaft pushed right out of it's bearing by hand in the rear housing where I had to pull the right one from the shaft with a puller.

Reinstall with Bearing Assembly Loctite. Holds the race to the shaft so the bearing works properly instead of spinning on the shaft.

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New gears for all three, (both countershafts, drive gear) are less than $350.00 for aftermarket new. Parts store said they used to sell many sets without problems. Can't say much about the trans as if rebuilt it would be a ready spare and I don't know what it could wind up installed into. The OD split in the replacement trans is louder than this one ever was but is tolerable and nowhere near what I've heard in others.

Other side is I'm going to install a bearing kit regardless. This back section took all of about 1/2 hours to totally disassemble and won't be much longer going back together. Easy enough to reuse the existing gearset and if it's not improved with the new bearings, replace the gears reusing the new bearings.

Meant to snap a photo but all the bearings in the back side have Fuller's assembly number and date scratched into them. Every bearing in the transmission is Timken "Made in USA".

4 minutes ago, JoeH said:

Reinstall with Bearing Assembly Loctite. Holds the race to the shaft so the bearing works properly instead of spinning on the shaft.

I've heard of that stuff but never used it. I think Permatex's variant is green in color. With the exception of one, all bearings so far far feel nice. I think the drive yoke was run loose for a while as the rear bearing is the one I term "notchy".

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11 hours ago, Rob said:

New gears for all three, (both countershafts, drive gear) are less than $350.00 for aftermarket new. Parts store said they used to sell many sets without problems. Can't say much about the trans as if rebuilt it would be a ready spare and I don't know what it could wind up installed into. The OD split in the replacement trans is louder than this one ever was but is tolerable and nowhere near what I've heard in others.

Other side is I'm going to install a bearing kit regardless. This back section took all of about 1/2 hours to totally disassemble and won't be much longer going back together. Easy enough to reuse the existing gearset and if it's not improved with the new bearings, replace the gears reusing the new bearings.

Meant to snap a photo but all the bearings in the back side have Fuller's assembly number and date scratched into them. Every bearing in the transmission is Timken "Made in USA".

I've heard of that stuff but never used it. I think Permatex's variant is green in color. With the exception of one, all bearings so far far feel nice. I think the drive yoke was run loose for a while as the rear bearing is the one I term "notchy".

I would use Red Loctite

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7 minutes ago, fjh said:

I would use Red Loctite

I have bottles of that product which works well. Never have used a bearing locker in the past but never ran into one loose like these unless designed to be that way, (wheel bearings etc.).

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1 minute ago, Rob said:

I have bottles of that product which works well. Never have used a bearing locker in the past but never ran into one loose like these unless designed to be that way, (wheel bearings etc.).

You bet!

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Got to yakking with a friend out west this afternoon and he has a good back end for an RTO-14613 I can have cheap if this trans doesn't go back together satisfactorily. I'm still going to try but won't purchase a new gearset if it's not quiet. From the manuals it looks as if the bearings and other parts are the same between the two transmissions with only the gearset being different.

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Rob if you go with the 14613 rear box make sure and get the out put drive gear on the front box and change yours on the 12513 cause they are different.

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1 hour ago, theakerstwo said:

Rob if you go with the 14613 rear box make sure and get the out put drive gear on the front box and change yours on the 12513 cause they are different.

Hi Glenn:

This is the auxiliary drive gear from the RTO-12513 part number 16758 which is superceded to a K-1650 kit:

image.png.501bd66492a92523a16058043bcfc658.png

This is the drive gear from a RTO-14613 and an upgrade from the original style. Don't know what he has but the complete transmission still exists but taken apart:

image.png.b6e1c846675d6e1a1b2282371f2bab51.png

The gear splines in the RTO-14613 sure are finer as are the driven countergears and reduction gear in the auxiliary section than with the RTO-12513.

Thanks!

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These are countershafts from the RTO-12513 series:

image.png.abafe45c0aa55129332d0a48523b1b24.png

These are from the RTO-14613:

image.png.fff7aa584623d9569aba1d3480dc71ff.png

Neither transmission has the later production tapered bearing design so a pretty close match from the looks.

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Man I'm getting old. Throwing the 13 speed up on my shoulder to move it from the back to front of the shop is causing me to creak and crack more than it used to. Rolling it down to set it on the bench took a bit of effort to maintain balance too. 

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Rob your still young and it want hurt long.What will hurt is holding the trans up by hand while your wife drops the bolt two or three times trying to get them to start in the flywheel housing.

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Your right there Glenn. What was difficult was getting the replacement trans stabbed through the clutch discs with no trans jack and relying upon my "belly by Budweiser" to support the weight.

I got them moved however and set upright. Both the 13 speed, and a RTO-6609 I've been saving for some god unknown reason for a lot of years.....

image.jpeg.0d6a3aefc489419caaf2410e52378909.jpeg

Two aspirin and the pain is already starting to go away.....

 

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2 hours ago, theakerstwo said:

Rob your still young and it want hurt long.What will hurt is holding the trans up by hand while your wife drops the bolt two or three times trying to get them to start in the flywheel housing.

I think Rob would switch the positions...

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4 hours ago, Phase 1 said:

I think Rob would switch the positions...

Naw, "Momma" is a bit more petite than I am; and a lot softer in places than me. On top of that, when you put weight on the old girl, she kinda "oozes" and that can be a mess.

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Posted (edited)

I have found all kinds of old syncronizer friction material throughout this transmission. Upon pulling the auxiliary driving gear from the housing and mainshaft, this is what I seen:

 

image.jpeg.203fe8e6a145880d1c05466d61f28177.jpeg

There are a gillion little pieces parts of this stuff in the bearings and when the input shaft is rotated slowly you can hear it crunching away on the rollers but you have to listen close. This particular bearing was packed in the rollers with this fine grit of being chopped up by the bearing rolling.

Me thinks in an uneducatable mindset a syncronizer came apart at one time and was replaced, but the job not done complete. I can find no damage to the existing syncronizer, and there are definitely no chunks missing from it. There are burnishings stuck to magnets but really nothing out of the ordinary I feel. Nothing is larger than what you would see on any other magnetic drain plug as instance. Just a lot more given the amount of gear mesh there is. The gears are all mostly worn about the same as the reduction gear shown earlier. Nothing exceptional and what wear I do see appears to be even throughout. The timing marks in the main case are dead on too. The rear bearing I termed "notchy" earlier is now smooth being run through the solvent tank and blown clean. It rotates much the same any other roller bearing does without abnormal noises or feel.

My further uneducated analysis of this is it's possible the auxiliary section of the transmission was rebuilt separate of the front; possibly when the assumed syncronizer discombobulated earlier. That seems to reconcile with the auxiliary section right countergear being one tooth off in timing also. The business where I purchased this truck from did their own mechanical repairs. 

I'm going to pull it all the way apart and use the engine washer cabinet to get everything clean and ready for reassembly with the rebuild kit I have purchased. As of now and following advice rendered here, I may just use the bearings and consumable parts from the kit I have. If the new races are loose on the countergear nubs, I'll LocTite them as Fred suggests and not worry about it. I actually liked the way this transmission shifted better than the one currently installed. I'll slip it back into the truck once it's rebuilt for a test and it'll remain if quiet.

Edited by Rob

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On March 10, 2019 at 10:36 PM, Rob said:

Your right there Glenn. What was difficult was getting the replacement trans stabbed through the clutch discs with no trans jack and relying upon my "belly by Budweiser" to support the weight.

I got them moved however and set upright. Both the 13 speed, and a RTO-6609 I've been saving for some god unknown reason for a lot of years.....

image.jpeg.0d6a3aefc489419caaf2410e52378909.jpeg

Two aspirin and the pain is already starting to go away.....

 

I think you've been saving that 9 speed for me.     I think it was a 66 series I was told to look for to stick behind a 8.3 cummins.  

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My surmising was correct; sorta. The back end of this transmission is a 1979 after the original trans grenaded the rear box and this one was swapped onto the front from a parts truck by the prior owner. The main transmission was a reman unit in 1987. Kinda explains the problems sort of.

Broke a tip from my ring pliers getting the circlip from/off the rear mainshaft/auxiliary drive gear bearing as shown in the photo. I ordered another pair, (much heavier) this morning catching them on sale from a tool supplier I frequent. I don't get along with the Snap-on dealer's prices so don't have him around unless warranty issue and need to go online for most tool purchases. Sure, there is Harbor Freight, but I like good tools so really don't frequent there.

Kind of a stop on the project till I get those ring pliers as cannot get everything broken down till replacements arrive and I don't need something else in a thousand pieces laying around.

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On 3/12/2019 at 7:00 AM, Hobert62 said:

I think you've been saving that 9 speed for me.     I think it was a 66 series I was told to look for to stick behind a 8.3 cummins.  

I actually brought the truck in for a rebuild that trans was installed into. Was in the process of swapping the cab when owner settled with the insurance company on value. I kept the chassis remainder after he settled minus the installed feeder bed. I was going to install it into my Dodge pickup when I finally wore the V10 gas engine out but that hasn't happened yet. I may still but the truck is quite rough in it's later years and I don't think I'll go through it again.

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After doing some hunting I think a 8.3 out of a L8000 style ford has the right lean to the engine.   I think it will fit right in my dog house to eventually replace my tired 673.   Prob not gonna happen for awhile, just gonna fix my fuel lines and keep playing as is for now.  

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I think you are correct on the engine lean in that series. The 8.3 Cummins is physically smaller than the Mack diesel so should go right in. Used to maintenance a couple of them on generator sets and they were reliable. 

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Going to get it apart now as received new USA manufactured ring pliers this morning:

image.jpeg.f97b92b18a63be50324883d6eb06b0df.jpeg

Nice fitting jaws:

image.jpeg.350a20c216723553d382048a23ddb279.jpeg

Nice divots to hole the ring ends:

image.jpeg.5583750dee29fbcd2ba591ca0642cddc.jpeg

About 1.625" spread:

image.jpeg.ddcdbc34e5baf6286dbf476ffccb3f27.jpeg

Let no snap ring impede my progress:

Rob

 

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