Vibration that 2 mechanics and Mack dealer can’t figure out

[mrsmackpaul]

I have been reading this thread on and off for some time 

Are you sure the timing is right between injector pump cam and crank 
Has anyone dialed it in just to see ??


One thing for sure it isnt anything that has been tried so far as most things have been done a few times now and still no difference except the bank balance is a lot lighter 

Always go back to basics, something has had to have changed to start this and yet no one is really looking just changing stuff hoping to fix the problem 

There is a very good reason I fix all my own things and rarely pay anyone, I might stuff up but I will admit it and not bull shit my self and I also know what has been left and missed 

I rebuild truck and tractor transmissions motors and and final drives, I rebuild final drives and the like and rarely change every bearing, shaft or gears and my old buckets will work on full power all day and not let me down 

I make plenty of mistakes but I learn from them 

I would have bought my own tools long ago and maybe still not have fixed it but would have a far better understanding of whats what 

just saying

Paul   

[RobM626]

3 hours ago, mrsmackpaul said:

I have been reading this thread on and off for some time 

Are you sure the timing is right between injector pump cam and crank 
Has anyone dialed it in just to see ??


One thing for sure it isnt anything that has been tried so far as most things have been done a few times now and still no difference except the bank balance is a lot lighter 

Always go back to basics, something has had to have changed to start this and yet no one is really looking just changing stuff hoping to fix the problem 

There is a very good reason I fix all my own things and rarely pay anyone, I might stuff up but I will admit it and not bull shit my self and I also know what has been left and missed 

I rebuild truck and tractor transmissions motors and and final drives, I rebuild final drives and the like and rarely change every bearing, shaft or gears and my old buckets will work on full power all day and not let me down 

I make plenty of mistakes but I learn from them 

I would have bought my own tools long ago and maybe still not have fixed it but would have a far better understanding of whats what 

just saying

Paul   

It’s an eup motor. But the timing of the cam gear was always a thought in my head. When I mentioned that to the guy that did the work (who closed his shop this year by the way) he said if the timing was off it either wouldn’t run or would be smoking like crazy. The fact of the matter is I have no idea what they did or didn’t do. What I do know is they didn’t change the EUP’s when they did the cam and rollers. The 2 from the bad lobes were shot. So the motor was running with barely firing/ leaking injectors until I went to a different shop and I changed all 6. And that guy didn’t even change nozzles and injector lines. I’m so sick of people opening businesses and calling themselves mechanics . I have a business and if someone asks me to do something if I don’t know the answer or what I’m doing I straight up say so or get someone that does.

 

[theakerstwo]

The city I live near is full of one horse shops that could not make it at a dealer and now have a shop of their own.I watch guys take their trucks there and end up running into same as this problem has.So many guys I work with ask me ever so often what can we do and I always tell them ever one that owns a truck and cant work on it their self is having same problem with repairs.If you can do your own repairs then don't keep the truck.

[RobM626]

6 hours ago, theakerstwo said:

The city I live near is full of one horse shops that could not make it at a dealer and now have a shop of their own.I watch guys take their trucks there and end up running into same as this problem has.So many guys I work with ask me ever so often what can we do and I always tell them ever one that owns a truck and cant work on it their self is having same problem with repairs.If you can do your own repairs then don't keep the truck.

It’s just not right . I hear what your saying. I’m trying to learn more and more and do as much as I can but life is a whole learning experience. I just have different morals and values than a lot of other people. I admit when I’m wrong and try to rectify it and I care about my professional reputation. I literally wouldn’t be able to sleep at night or look myself in the mirror knowing I charged someone thousands of dollars and did a half assed job

[mrsmackpaul]

What a lot of people don't understand is that timing is critical for diesel and timing to each cylinder is even more critical

Injector lines cant be shortened at all and if a diesel miss fires on one cylinder even a tiny bit it will mean that the motor is out of balance

How much is needed to out of balance will depend on the injector line length

As little as a few months ago I a injector line broke on the way into Dubbo (town in western NSW) the young pimple faced mechanic at the Mack dealer say's "just crimp it off" I tried to explain you cant , he wouldnt listen so in the end I trimed a little out and joing the line with some air line fittings to get me going

Im sure we have all heard stories about motors running on 5 instead of 6 or 7instead of 8 for years with no drama , when pressed about these yarns they turn out to be bull, a motor will vibrate it self apart

I am not a trained mechanic at all but I make it my business to know whats going on and to know how long things should take as it all costs me money and it doesnt grow on trees were Im from

Something is wrong that no one else has looked at yet, all anyone has done is fix the symptom 

Like going to the doctor with your finger half hanging off and you say "I'm leaking blood" the doctor says just put some pressure on it , all good the blood stops but you question as to why when you take the pressure off it starts leaking again and no one bothers to put a stitch or two in to fix the problem 

You need to go back to basics and confirm everything is right at the very start of when this problem began, trouble is no mechanic is gunna want to touch this mess now after every other person has had their fonger in the pie

I dont know about the US but out here there are very few mechanics left just people that change things over because they are told by the computer or forman 

Or buy your self some tools and a couple of workshop manuals and fix it your self, even if it takes months it wont matter because its been off the road for months now and cant do no worse than whats already been done 

 

Paul

Edited June 10, 2018 by mrsmackpaul

[keg1]

I was always afraid to tear into something not knowing what I was doing, figured I'd really screw it up but after going to a few garages and watching these guys that looked like they knew even less than I did fumble around while I'm paying big bucks per hour I started doing a lot myself.

[Swishy]

Q:?

Has the beast an Engine Brake

Some time ago I was able to make the mack tilt tray do crazy things like shake etc

till I worked out I had the engine brake switched on from a cold start

think n?

may B the wiring to the engine brake is short n out

n make n the engine run ear rat ikle

LOL

Jist a thort

tip of the day.... do not switch any engine brake on till the engine is @ operate n temp

cya

§wishy

[RobM626]

2 hours ago, mrsmackpaul said:

What a lot of people don't understand is that timing is critical for diesel and timing to each cylinder is even more critical

Injector lines cant be shortened at all and if a diesel miss fires on one cylinder even a tiny bit it will mean that the motor is out of balance

How much is needed to out of balance will depend on the injector line length

As little as a few months ago I a injector line broke on the way into Dubbo (town in western NSW) the young pimple faced mechanic at the Mack dealer say's "just crimp it off" I tried to explain you cant , he wouldnt listen so in the end I trimed a little out and joing the line with some air line fittings to get me going

Im sure we have all heard stories about motors running on 5 instead of 6 or 7instead of 8 for years with no drama , when pressed about these yarns they turn out to be bull, a motor will vibrate it self apart

I am not a trained mechanic at all but I make it my business to know whats going on and to know how long things should take as it all costs me money and it doesnt grow on trees were Im from

Something is wrong that no one else has looked at yet, all anyone has done is fix the symptom 

Like going to the doctor with your finger half hanging off and you say "I'm leaking blood" the doctor says just put some pressure on it , all good the blood stops but you question as to why when you take the pressure off it starts leaking again and no one bothers to put a stitch or two in to fix the problem 

You need to go back to basics and confirm everything is right at the very start of when this problem began, trouble is no mechanic is gunna want to touch this mess now after every other person has had their fonger in the pie

I dont know about the US but out here there are very few mechanics left just people that change things over because they are told by the computer or forman 

Or buy your self some tools and a couple of workshop manuals and fix it your self, even if it takes months it wont matter because its been off the road for months now and cant do no worse than whats already been done 

 

Paul

I bought the etech service manual but there’s not much in there on trouble shooting. Unless there are different service manuals I don’t know. There’s information on how it runs and assembly/dissasembly but not much on how to diagnose. That’s y I’ve been driving all you fine gentlemen crazy for Months lol.

im running the truck everyday I really don’t have much of a choice. It costs us 800-1000$ a day to rent a dump truck from another company and that’s a non union truck. I feel like I’ve been running the truck like this so long that I did irreversible damage. Gonna see what happens when I drop the tranny and oil pan.

thanks for the input

[RobM626]

Pulled the oil pan today... nothing that popped out to show breakage or wear... gonna pull some caps tomorrow and check the journals....idk we’ll see what happens.

[mackey58]

Nothing pisses ya off more than these shops that couldn't fix an anvil. We took a 2012 f250 to our local mech.told him it vibrates and clunks when you put the auto Tran in gear told it it might be a u joint he told us it doesn't have u joints looks like a u joint  to me

[RobM626]

46 minutes ago, mackey58 said:

Nothing pisses ya off more than these shops that couldn't fix an anvil. We took a 2012 f250 to our local mech.told him it vibrates and clunks when you put the auto Tran in gear told it it might be a u joint he told us it doesn't have u joints looks like a u joint  to me

Lol

[mackey58]

Or when we took the 90 rd to a local shop the young guy came out with a lap top and looked in the truck then at and asked  where to plug  in and I told hin the cigarette lighter lol

[41chevy]

13 hours ago, mackey58 said:

Nothing pisses ya off more than these shops that couldn't fix an anvil. We took a 2012 f250 to our local mech.told him it vibrates and clunks when you put the auto Tran in gear told it it might be a u joint he told us it doesn't have u joints looks like a u joint  to me

Because in "new speak" they are now called "power transfer assemblies"

[41chevy]

If all your issues started when the accident damage was so called repaired, I would go back to that issue and take your self and a helper and measure the chassis for square and twist.The clutch issues could be the result of a bent  or misaligned chassis and the miss could actually be a result of that stress.  The chassis dimensions are available from MACK. That would either eliminate or confirm any misalignment of the engine, trans and such caused by the hit..  In my opinion there has been so much misdiagnosis and parts thrown at it, that the original cause(s) of your issues may be lost. Might be best to review your repairs to date and start again with the basics. Just my opinion from 45 years of dealing with others misdiagnosis' in my shop.

 

[fjh]

On 6/20/2018 at 2:00 PM, RobM626 said:

Pulled the oil pan today... nothing that popped out to show breakage or wear... gonna pull some caps tomorrow and check the journals....idk we’ll see what happens.

So your cap outcome???what did ya see!

[RobM626]

19 hours ago, fjh said:

So your cap outcome???what did ya see!

I didn’t personally see It BC I was working the whole day but they told me they couldn’t find any breaks but there was some bearing wear. Do u think I should put a new set of bearings in?

[terry]

16 minutes ago, RobM626 said:

I didn’t personally see It BC I was working the whole day but they told me they couldn’t find any breaks but there was some bearing wear. Do u think I should put a new set of bearings in?

kind of senseless if you have it that far down!    terry

[Swishy]

Think this saga haz gorn on 2 long

the pain of own n a beast with no fix 

surely a process of elimination can sort the problem

<1> Will the vibration start with the engine running in neutral with the truck stationary ?

<2> Remove tail shaft .... with the engine running in each gear upto governor with the truck stationary ?

<3> Travelling down the road when vibration starts ... chuk it in to neutral..... or and disengage the clutch any change?

<4> Try all the above and remove jack shaft between the diffs

<5> do all the wheelbases add up the same (front steer to 1st drive )(1st drive to 2nd drive) etc?

<6> Grab someone with a trained eye to follow U ... may B with a video camera

Sorry if any of the above haz already bin mentioned

cya

§wishy

 

[Swishy]

<7> Jack the RSend up get sum daylight under the tars  n whirl er up to the speed of wen truble starts

<8>  Has the tailshaft & Jackshaft been balanced

<9> Is the tailshaft & Jackshaft been timed to run in parallel or may B 1 or 2 splines off parallel

I am sure sum of this has bin asked B 4

cya

§wishy

[fjh]

I'm tapped out I'm now just hoping for some one to pull a rabbit out of the hat for ya! the good ole AHA moment would be nice about now!

[RobM626]

On 6/24/2018 at 1:04 AM, Swishy said:

Think this saga haz gorn on 2 long

the pain of own n a beast with no fix 

surely a process of elimination can sort the problem

<1> Will the vibration start with the engine running in neutral with the truck stationary ?

<2> Remove tail shaft .... with the engine running in each gear upto governor with the truck stationary ?

<3> Travelling down the road when vibration starts ... chuk it in to neutral..... or and disengage the clutch any change?

<4> Try all the above and remove jack shaft between the diffs

<5> do all the wheelbases add up the same (front steer to 1st drive )(1st drive to 2nd drive) etc?

<6> Grab someone with a trained eye to follow U ... may B with a video camera

Sorry if any of the above haz already bin mentioned

cya

§wishy

 

1. Yes it’s there when in neutral and stationary

2. I’m gonna have them try that this week. I’m having them drop the tranny and put on dump to test it.

3. Yes it changes it’s not as bad

4. I will have them check out the diffs this week ... all of my shafts were recently serviced and balanced with no real change to my issue.

5. I’m going to have the alignment checked as well. 

Thanks for your input 

[RobM626]

8 hours ago, fjh said:

I'm tapped out I'm now just hoping for some one to pull a rabbit out of the hat for ya! the good ole AHA moment would be nice about now!

Everyone is tapped out lol. When the mechanics see me come in with the truck after I get it back they start running like I’m the plague

[mrsmackpaul]

Hang on 

I must be realy thick , if it vibrates when its in neutral and the truck sitting still it eliminates all the rest on the Swish mans list 

And as I recall this only became real bad after a fresh cam was installed 

There is some major hints as to were to look 

Dunno much about these modern motors but the cam drives the injector pump on older motors 

If the cam is out a poofteenth it means the injector pump is out 

So I would dial um the cam just to check it

I would then spill time the pump tomake sure its fine and accurate as well

Ans lastly make sure the injector lines are still going to the correct injectors 

But if it's some flash common rail jigger you might wanna forget all of the above lol

Paul

[RobM626]

1 hour ago, mrsmackpaul said:

Hang on 

I must be realy thick , if it vibrates when its in neutral and the truck sitting still it eliminates all the rest on the Swish mans list 

And as I recall this only became real bad after a fresh cam was installed 

There is some major hints as to were to look 

Dunno much about these modern motors but the cam drives the injector pump on older motors 

If the cam is out a poofteenth it means the injector pump is out 

So I would dial um the cam just to check it

I would then spill time the pump tomake sure its fine and accurate as well

Ans lastly make sure the injector lines are still going to the correct injectors 

But if it's some flash common rail jigger you might wanna forget all of the above lol

Paul

I have an EUP motor (6 individual electronics unit pumps) . There still is the possibility the cam gear is not times perfectly. A lot of my symptoms do point to that. As far as the lines go. I had the cam dialed about 9 months ago and the lines were in spec but the cam had scratches scuffs on it. After I did the cam the truck ran differently. I thought it was going to run better but doesn’t. After I get the truck back from dropping the tranny I’m going to pop the valve covers and do some checks . Or leave the truck in the south Bronx somewhere with the windows open and keys inside with a sign saying “take me I’ll be glad to be your problem”

[Hobert62]

Going on what Paul said a timing issue could cause low torque and extra slipping of clutch leading to premature clutch wear.