Dirtymilkman Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Maxidyne said: The 60 series Detroit was an electronic engine from the start, way back in the mid 80s when emissions standards were pretty lax. If mechanical injection control is so great, how come Detroit didn't go mechanical? Actually the 2 stroke Detroit diesels were electronic first. It was very easy on those because every injector has it's own rack. All they did was replace the injectors with one's with electric controlled racks. Then you had a computer that could control the functions instead of mechanical linkage that needed VERY finicky adjustment. The series 60 came about because of Roger Penske. He wanted motors for his fleet that could record accurate data, get good mpg, meet incoming emissions and most of all have cruise control. He bought Detroit Diesel, and then came the motors. 1987 was the very first ddec. But I remember in college, cruise control was the biggest reason besides data logging for electric engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxidyne Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 Correct, the 2 strokes went electronic first. While Penske Leasing may have encouraged GM to go electronic, Penske didn't buy Detroit until after the 60 series was introduced. So I suspect GM went with electronic controls because they worked better and they had the financial resources to develop them, and emissions standards were a lesser motivating factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullheaded Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 GM has no credit for the 60 Series. That was John Deere and Penske according to everything I have ever read about them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxidyne Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 GM owned Detroit Diesel from the 1930s until it was sold to Penske AFTER the 60 Series was introduced. I've heard the rumors of Deere contributing to the 60 series development, but never seen it documented. As far as Penske involvement, Penske was much smaller in the trucking business then so I doubt they had a major involvement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h67st Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 I remember back in the day that John Deere worked with DD on the development of the 60 series. I don't remember when Penske got involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtymilkman Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 1 hour ago, Maxidyne said: GM owned Detroit Diesel from the 1930s until it was sold to Penske AFTER the 60 Series was introduced. I've heard the rumors of Deere contributing to the 60 series development, but never seen it documented. As far as Penske involvement, Penske was much smaller in the trucking business then so I doubt they had a major involvement. Penske was in Detroit before the series 60. In 1988 he started a joint venture with them which was Detroit Diesel Corporation. They then went public in the early 90's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phase 1 Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 From Wikipedia: 1987: The Series 60 — the four-cycle heavy-duty engine for which the company is well known — was introduced. It was the first production engine to have integrated electronic controls as a standard feature. The Series 60 was cleaner and more fuel-efficient than previous heavy-duty engines, and quickly became the biggest selling heavy-duty diesel engine in the North American Class 8 truck market. 1988 January 1: A joint venture between Penske Corporation and General Motors created Detroit Diesel Corporation. Penske had a 60% majority ownership in the new venture and the CEO was former racecar driver Roger Penske.[2][3] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Technician Posted December 4, 2017 Author Share Posted December 4, 2017 (edited) Maxidyne... I don't think there are many arguments against electronic diesel over mechanical ..... as with fuel injection vs carb. More an question of how nice it would be to have one harness to the injection system and not an hell-born octopus wrapping it's tenticals into every corner of the machine. Not having to feed the exhaust an expensive def fluid that is freezable and eats metal components for lunch when it leaks. Not having to inject fuel into the muffler with no power return or even a cool flame out the tip. Not having 15 control modules instead of 2. Being able to communicate on the J1939 with a handheld scanner. Being able to actually see the engine block instead of what looks like a car crash victim with life support tubes hangin out of every hole. can keep going, but I filled my rant quota. Edited December 4, 2017 by Mack Technician 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Technician Posted December 4, 2017 Author Share Posted December 4, 2017 (edited) Volvo engine is also coming with a two speed water pump option. It will have a one-to-one lock up speed and a coasting speed in which it uses lodestone magnets to create a torque converter sorta slip. The expectation is it will be in lock 98% of the time. I think you will automatically get this pump if you have the turbo compounder. Edited December 4, 2017 by Mack Technician Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mackpro Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 I didn't know they had a clutch driven air compressor option for the volvos till the last class I went to. We got to take one apart , they talked of it and the 2 speed water pump going on the Macks as options Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lmackattack Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 2 hours ago, Mackpro said: I didn't know they had a clutch driven air compressor option for the volvos till the last class I went to. We got to take one apart , they talked of it and the 2 speed water pump going on the Macks as options I can see this as a nice feature but again I have to ask 3 things. How easy is it to service. and how much does it cost. and whats the service life. If any of those 3 dont offer a owner an advantage than its of no use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 On 11/30/2017 at 6:52 PM, Mack Technician said: They have created an ingenious fuel system on this engine. I'm going to cut my posts out of the start of the thread so I can add the pictures of the fuel system. No blowing smoke, it is jaw dropping clever. Seen a bunch of conversions to high rail, but this tops them all. Time will tell how ingenious this system is given all the other issues these engines have with injector cups this seems to be the weak point of an otherwise Fairly bullet proof engine design as for the two speed water pump splitting hairs with that in my opinion The Compressor disconnect makes some sense! As for Compounding to much complication for to little! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Technician Posted December 4, 2017 Author Share Posted December 4, 2017 From talking to the other guys and teacher....... the only cure for injector cups is lower horse for lower cylinder pressure. I was the only one who has never needed a cup and also the only one running 13 liter at 333 horses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 (edited) Not even a re design of the wimpy bolt and clap system that holds the dam thing in? very cheap ass to my way of thinking! There is othere options in my mind However I am not and engineer! ADDRESS the problems you have befor moving on to yet more complication! Edited December 4, 2017 by fjh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Technician Posted December 4, 2017 Author Share Posted December 4, 2017 (edited) How many (Volvo/Mack) cups will you put in a 500+ HP engine before you hit one million? Anyone keep an average? Current production engine, no brass. Edited December 4, 2017 by Mack Technician specifically Volvo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lmackattack Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 at the job I worked at for 14 years full time and still do part time. we had 5 trucks total and 2 of them needed cups. Both were 3406E model Cats at 425 and 550 HP settings. both trucks had around 500,000 on them at the time a cup failed . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Technician Posted December 4, 2017 Author Share Posted December 4, 2017 I'm rant baiting with this picture....Give you one guess on how much you will pay to get a grossly over-built tool for removing and installing a rear main seal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 (edited) It all depends on how much and how hard you work them from what i'm seeing We have some wicked long pulls here in BC ! we do cups still on a regular basis one a year on some! My guess 3000 Grand . More dealer gouging for tecky over the top stuff !!!!!! Shop rate just went up again ! To bad they didn't invest the money they spent on those tools in fixing the cup issue! Replacement tools for the trusted screw ,vise grip and crowbar method 50 bucks v/s the volvo criminal price! Good Bait ! Got me going! Edited December 4, 2017 by fjh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Technician Posted December 4, 2017 Author Share Posted December 4, 2017 (edited) Pretty close..... said it was about $3,500. Remover looks like something a hospital would pin your head inside to immobilize a broken neck. Edited December 4, 2017 by Mack Technician Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Bullheaded Posted December 5, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted December 5, 2017 There's one good thing on that cart. The E7-460 badge. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mackpro Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 We got our new tools a couple weeks ago with no explanation on what they were to be used for. Finally had to pull up the new service manual and check them out. It's crazy what Mack sends us sometimes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Technician Posted December 5, 2017 Author Share Posted December 5, 2017 2 hours ago, Mackpro said: We got our new tools a couple weeks ago with no explanation on what they were to be used for. Finally had to pull up the new service manual and check them out. It's crazy what Mack sends us sometimes Did they unvail a valve cover with a window to inspect rail during run??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mackpro Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 9 hours ago, Mack Technician said: Did they unvail a valve cover with a window to inspect rail during run??? No not yet. However it might be in the parts department and not made it out in the shop yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 (edited) OF coase the new ocean front valve cover is included in that 3500 bucks for the neck brace puller correct. Thermal pane glass I bet! When they changed over to the MP engine the first essential tools they sent us were the engine lifting brackets for removing engines from the trucks GOOD SIGN OF Confidence in the product!! Fortunately we only had to use em a couple of times in 15 years! Edited December 5, 2017 by fjh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Technician Posted December 5, 2017 Author Share Posted December 5, 2017 They sort of have you by the nose ring on those crank seals. It is essentially a backwards-installed two piece seal. The flat side you see on the last pic is the inside face. Think it would be hard to install properly, and not damage, without the tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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