kscarbel2 Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 14 minutes ago, Ezrider said: this truck was purchased from someone i knew he had all repair records for his ownership some from before, well documented in-frame rebuild done at a mack dealer roughly 1 year and 50-60k miles before i bought the truck, witch was basically pistons liners cut counter bores (drooped a liner was the reason for the in frame) rods and mains and re-mack heads 6 new injectors and a few other ods and ends. had it not been for this recent inframe though i likely would have chose a 3/4 replacement engine+ new turbo and injectors for a 3 year guarantee when the it ate the camshaft, it wouldn't have been a ton more money than what i paid for the cam job. i think my cam job all said and done everything replaced + new windsheilds came out to a parts list just shy of 10k and total invoice just shy of 14k i think the 3/4 replacement engine was pretty close to that price so the additional money i would have spent would be cost of the injectors and turbo and labor but from what i could see with the engine as apart as it was everything still looked great. i figured if i replaced everything in the valve train i would have a better engine as you cant tell me they don't reuse any parts on there re-mack engines. There might be an argument here, in light of all the facts, the amount of money you invested in genuine Mack parts and all work performed at a Mack brand dealer, that Mack corporate provide you with the option of purchasing a reman engine at a discounted price, in the interest of "customer satisfaction". Nobody is perfect, and the dealer has no detailed engine component inspection equipment alike the Reman Center. But that said, you went far and beyond, and the Mack brand system failed you. Again, I'm not so much faulting the dealer (I have no details), but rather suggesting that you have a strong case to argue with Mack corporate. Volvo can easily absorb the expense, if it wants to provide "customer satisfaction". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezrider Posted August 5, 2017 Author Share Posted August 5, 2017 i would not say they have failed me yet, they still have a opportunity to make it right, no one is perfect the best mechanic can make a mistake or overlook something they shouldn't have. i hope they make it right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kscarbel2 Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 11 minutes ago, Ezrider said: i would not say they have failed me yet, they still have a opportunity to make it right, no one is perfect the best mechanic can make a mistake or overlook something they shouldn't have. i hope they make it right. Well said. My concern is this is going to drag out, with one dealer suddenly put on the spot for work performed by another dealer. They're never comfortable in that situation, understandably so. And then you have the "slow as molasses" Volvo (Mack) warranty process. The relationship, the atmosphere, between Mack dealers in the Volvo era is not at all what it was in the days of Mack Trucks. This all works against you. If Mack "Customer Satisfaction" in Greensboro fails to assist you in a timely fashion*, call Mack brand head Denny Slagle directly and share your situation with him. You recently invested 13K with his Volvo-owned Mack brand organization and have a legitimate issue. It's his job to listen. * Your truck is a revenue-generating vehicle. Time is money. You have a "truck down" situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezrider Posted August 5, 2017 Author Share Posted August 5, 2017 i hope it does not drag out as well. And yes truck down gets very costly very fast. so far the original Mack dealer has had the better part of 1 business day to make a decision. truck came in on the hook Thursday afternoon, they took a look at it right away but it was 9:30 or so Friday morning when they got there conclusion together, call to the original dealer have current dealer e-mail reports ect, 10:00 am, now the warranty process starts. rather unfortunate that we are now over the weekend, and a long weekend here i really hope i can get a answer Monday, although if they need to collect any more additional information from the current dealer then that won't happen till Tuesday. if i don't have an answer by mid day Tuesday then it will be time to pull out my dueling gloves and demand satisfaction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezrider Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 well end of the day today, mack dealer here closed today due to Canadian holiday today. but original dealer open. called them at the end of the day looking for a update on the claim. no news to report, good bad or otherwise. was hoping at least they would make whatever decision they were going to make so first thing tomorrow we could get going on the repair. starting to get quite tired of being stuck in a hotel room loosing revenue spending money on the room ect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kscarbel2 Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Did you call Volvo Group's Mack brand customer satisfaction hotline (U.S. and Canada) at +1 (866) 298-6586 and start working this problem from that angle? The old saying, "the squeaky wheel gets the grease", was never truer than today when companies are all trying to be as cheap as possible. You should call Mack as a professional and a gentleman, and introduce your case. And they should become involved in a likewise professional manner. When you spent 13k on a Mack brand repair, you also purchased OEM level after-sales support. Don't ignore that fact......take full advantage of what you paid for. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezrider Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 not yet, if i don't have anything tomorrow morning i will go that route. I've been trying to give them the benefit of the doubt. figure Friday was collecting there facts then the weekend now they have had today to review it assuming that they have gotten all the information they need. I'll start tomorrow by stopping by the dealer where my truck is and confirm if they are requesting any more additional information. If not will be followed by call to home dealer. If still no answer from them yet then I'll go to the customer satisfaction hotline. kinda sucks being over the weekend esp with this weekend being a holiday weekend up here and I'm not someone that sits around very well, I always am doing something normally so I'm kinda bouncing off the walls here with my hands tied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezrider Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 so i got a call from mack at home first thing this morning, had a rather long discussion with them. it sounds like they are willing to work with me on it. i probably won't get 100% of the costs covered. witch i guess under the circumstances is understandable. but as i told them i am incurring substantially far greater expense than if they had done their due diligence during the initial repair. that they agreed with. they feel that the stud should be able to be extracted rather than re-place the head witch i tend to agree with. i spoke to mack here about it and they said that they feel replacing the head is the right way to go. as any time spent attempting to extract the stud could be wasted time. i basically said due to the cost/labor involvement in a replacing the head we probably need to spend at least an hour or two to attempt to extract the stud and see if we are making any progress and then make that call from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phase 1 Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 In extracting the stud, it sounds like they are not comfortable or experienced in doing that type of work. That could lead to a botched job. Perhaps they would agree to have someone who regularly does that kind of work to come in and do it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezrider Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 they claim there engine tech here has over 20 years as a mack engine tech i am not a master tech by any means but if i was at home in my shop and without a potential for a warranty claim i would personally feel comfortable trying to extract the stud myself. just my feeling on it i would ether take a rotary tool with a small diamond bit and try to grind a flat spot in the stud and then attempt to drill and tap a hole in the stud to extract it. the other option i could see being viable beyond the fact i would assume they don't have the ability to do it would be to use a tig welder to attempt build up the stud above the surface where you could get a hold of it and attempt to pull it out. if it was in my own shop at home and i was going to tackle to this repair myself i fee i would certainly make a effort to attempt to extract the stud before condemning the cyl head. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezrider Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 i guess i hate to try to push in another direction than there recommendation especially considering the fact that i had not prior done that is probably the biggest factor in them not just telling immediately telling me to bug off as far as a warranty claim. but i at the same time i feel that not spending at least an hour to make a to extract the broken stud first would be kinda foolish when you compare the cost of a cyl head and labor to remove and re install. the cost of an hour or two's labor to make a attempt seems worthwhile to me. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezrider Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 i guess another thing to add is the oil pan still needs to be dropped to inspect the cam/lifter as when the bridge yoke guide failed the valve train on that cyl would have unloaded with ceramic lifter could certainly be bad bad mojo there. so i spoke with them again and discussed that probably needs to be the next thing done first as if there is a failed lifter/cam due to the yoke guide failure it would basically mean a complete re-do of the cam job. wont necessarily affect what needs to be done on the topside as far as extracting the stud vrs head replacement but its a big question that may alter the plan of attack here anyway. spoke with the mechanic as well and he claims he has seen a lot of these failures and has never had any luck extracting a guide that was broken off below the surface of the head if they are at least flush to where he can weld onto it then he would say extraction was likely and that is why his recommendation is to replace the head but that he is certainly willing to give it a shot anyway. and the service adviser also did kinda agree that if we at least make a attempt to extract the stud then and fail then at least we would have piece of mind that it couldn't have been saved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 (edited) I have also had Very little luck extracting EVEN non broken studs can't even imagine trying to remove a broken one! Good luck !!! Replace the head and get on with it! Minimise your down time ! You may have a Half chance of being running by weeks end! Remember Down time is money ! Edited August 8, 2017 by fjh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamsterGrrrl Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Had a broken engine mount stud on a Harley Sportster engine in a Buell, a frequent failure as the hole was never designed to hold the engine in place. New complete head assemblies were around $250 retail back then, but Harley insisted on paying a couple hours labor to extract the stud instead! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 It"s Almost mid week Still got to order parts ! bla bla Times awasting! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezrider Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 Monday was a holiday here, today is the first day they are back in, if the stud is extract-able it would save a large amount of time. if the stud can be extracted and the cam/lifter did not suffer damage i could see being back on the road well before the end of the week. to replace a cyl head with parts ordering time friday might be a push. if the cam/lifters got damaged from the valve train unloading im most likely hosed till some time next week anyway. also if you have been unable to extract even a non broken stud, i mean this in the nicest way possible but i would question your ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Technician Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 4 hours ago, Ezrider said: i guess another thing to add is the oil pan still needs to be dropped to inspect the cam/lifter as when the bridge yoke guide failed the valve train on that cyl would have unloaded with ceramic lifter could certainly be bad bad mojo there. so i spoke with them again and discussed that probably needs to be the next thing done first as if there is a failed lifter/cam due to the yoke guide failure it would basically mean a complete re-do of the cam job. wont necessarily affect what needs to be done on the topside as far as extracting the stud vrs head replacement but its a big question that may alter the plan of attack here anyway. spoke with the mechanic as well and he claims he has seen a lot of these failures and has never had any luck extracting a guide that was broken off below the surface of the head if they are at least flush to where he can weld onto it then he would say extraction was likely and that is why his recommendation is to replace the head but that he is certainly willing to give it a shot anyway. and the service adviser also did kinda agree that if we at least make a attempt to extract the stud then and fail then at least we would have piece of mind that it couldn't have been saved. When I hit a wall with service departments the next call is to reman center for suggested repairs. My John Deere dealer is especially good about that, don't know about Mack. Reman always get's it out and it's probably not as surgical as you'd imagine. I've seen some burnt, blue metal, butchery come back with reman paint over it. If you can't get a magnetic press into the space find a guy with a good cool hand. Once got a T2180 from reman with a 3"-4" crack in the dry bell. Looked like cast flaw. They had it epoxied and painted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Technician Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Cornwell made slide hammer bits that mated to vise grip rear. It's been my friends in a lot of fights. You just need to get a hook of any kind into your victim and hammer away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 also if you have been unable to extract even a non broken stud, i mean this in the nicest way possible but i would question your ability. Admittedly my attempt a trying to remove the guide was an attempt to re use on another head My point is they are very tight to remove at the best of time ! Impossible to remove without ruining in my opinion at least the ones i have attempted! Its not something we do everyday ! And I realise in this case were not saving anything and if its weldable then ready rod and a slide hammer or hollow porta power is tryable ! Two hours 120 shop rate 240 bucks ! if it works you win if not guess its just 240 ! And How many guide pins do think are in stock Did anyone look?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezrider Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 all studs would be replaced. regardless, if the front head ends up getting replaced it would have new studs plan is to replace all studs in the rear head, if we were to be able to extract the broken stud we would also replace the remaining studs on the front head as well. that would be a no brainer. i also agree trying to remove a stud in a way to re-use the stud would be different than trying to remove the stud to replace, not worried about damage to the stud itself if you are replacing it. my train of thought is mirrored on whats 240 bucks to try vrs what probably 1000 or more for the cyl head and plus labor to remove and install. it seems to me like a worth while roll of the dice. i know today they were needing to get a injector replacement finished that was waiting on parts when my truck came in. then after that my truck gets the priority spot, will check in at the end of the day today and see where we are at hopefully my truck will have gotten some progress made at least hopefully the pan dropped and lifter/cam inspected and progress from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 You seem to be quite logical That is good for the shop that your at! Has their parts guy checked on availability of the pins and or head I guess with out a game plan its hard ,however it can hurt for the parts guy to look for pieces and be prepared to pull the trigger on either or! If they a a small place they likely won't have things nobody wants to stock stuff these days! And the stuff your going to need is kind of odd ball! Pays to keep your head screwed on right and work with people! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kscarbel2 Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 7 hours ago, Ezrider said: so i got a call from mack at home first thing this morning, had a rather long discussion with them. it sounds like they are willing to work with me on it. i probably won't get 100% of the costs covered. witch i guess under the circumstances is understandable. but as i told them i am incurring substantially far greater expense than if they had done their due diligence during the initial repair. that they agreed with. they feel that the stud should be able to be extracted rather than re-place the head witch i tend to agree with. i spoke to mack here about it and they said that they feel replacing the head is the right way to go. as any time spent attempting to extract the stud could be wasted time. i basically said due to the cost/labor involvement in a replacing the head we probably need to spend at least an hour or two to attempt to extract the stud and see if we are making any progress and then make that call from there. Replacing the head is the right way to go, for several obvious reasons. Under the circumstances, you're in a position to get a reman Mack head for free. I myself would pay out-of-pocket to replace the second head at the same time, if you plan to run the truck long-term. How could you possibly not get 100% of the costs covered ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezrider Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 heads were replaced with re-mack heads at 940 current 185 so 245 on remack heads. i think we have a obligation to at least try to save the heads, if i had 900 on my heads i would certainly be much more for the replace it and do the other one out of pocket deal. oil pan came off today cam and lifters appear to be fine so win there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kscarbel2 Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 20 minutes ago, Ezrider said: heads were replaced with re-mack heads at 940 current 185 so 245 on remack heads. i think we have a obligation to at least try to save the heads, if i had 900 on my heads i would certainly be much more for the replace it and do the other one out of pocket deal. oil pan came off today cam and lifters appear to be fine so win there. You have 245,000 miles on the heads? Then they're not new anymore by any stretch. Who is "we"? Why do you have an "obligation" to save the heads. The Mack brand dealer's workmanship failed. They have to stand behind it. The best way, as the Mack dealer effecting the second repair said, is to replace the head (and I myself like to replace heads in pairs). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezrider Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 (edited) i say that because if the bill was 100% on me i would want to try to save the head, if i was on there end of it i would want to see a attempt made to save the head. i think it is reasonable to everyone involved to at least make a attempt. and then go from there. and no 245k miles is not new but i see no other reason besides the the failure of the yoke guide that the heads would otherwise need to be replaced at this time. Edited August 8, 2017 by Ezrider 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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