Jump to content
Mack Technician

Mack AI460 AI427 AMI low torque low horsepower poor fuel mileage granite , dead dog , remediation

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

Can you tell me 

years and size of engine with non restrictive manifold, just to be sure and buy the right piece 

to fit on mack CT 713 2007 AI 460

thanks 

 

Edited by Sparksracing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Sparksracing said:

Can you tell me 

years and size of engine with non restrictive manifold, just to be sure and buy the right piece 

to fit on mack CT 713 2007 AI 460

thanks 

 

The part numbers are one page back...…..

Ends are 21090679 (104GC5164M-old number) $284.06, of which you need 2.

Center is a 21090730, $203.99 (Both 104GC5165M3 (high temp center) and 104GC5165M (regular application) supersede to same number.... 21090730).

 

If you use PAI the end pieces are  EEX-2054   Quantity 2  (ends)

                                                             EEX-1848   Quantity 1 (center)

Edited by Mack Technician
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Isn't the center section where turbo bolts on slanted on the CL's if so you will need a different part number

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Never mind I see he asked about CT not CL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

 

This is a CL713, W/Slant turbo (flash back to how trucks use to be built for accessibility...…). 

 

2000 MACK CL713 at TruckPaper.com

 

 

 

This is a CT713, no slant.

2006 MACK GRANITE CT713 at TruckPaper.com

 

2006 MACK GRANITE CT713 at TruckPaper.com

Edited by Mack Technician

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wanted to list Sparksracing's (above) comments. He burned out an AI manifold and needed to replace it so he put the E-Tech manifold on his Aset and ran all original parts in tandem with a Programmer (he said Pittsburgh brand). The transition of surface mates can't be smooth, but its a mate.  Right off the line he blew his tube boot off and the thing went to smoke, hence the black tar seeping out the gasket. He got things straightened out and from his observation it sounds like the manifold turned him from a 460 Econodyne into a 460 Maxidyne.  :loldude:     First AMI460?

 01F217B1-0924-4626-8796-5B30590ED14A.jpeg

 

Ok 

i have re-tested and all looks ok. No more slobber and normal black smoke, but more than before. The truck runs good for the moment, the only difference. I think is the turbo boosts a little bit slower than before. Before i would boost up to 32 psi now it takes longer to get it, but the truck has more power, it’s strange. I think all is ok. I think when the boot kicked off the engine was not breathing and a little bit of engine oil was go into the exhaust and caused slobber, cause now all is ok . Today it’s too hot 42 degrees outside and the pyro looks like normal, temps 8-900f, but when I let off the fuel pedal the pyros going down more fast than before. I found it more normal, it’s like my Peterbilt.

thank you so much 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Swapping thoughts with a well established heavy haul member today about adding an AI460 to his fleet of pavement crackers. Looking forward...He wants to camshaft swap up front. Jump in anyone who has cam swapped a 460, but I’m advising him there’s no great advantage. 

Mack didn’t/couldn’t afford to/ failed to build a variable exhaust restriction to make the AI engine NOx reduction work at all RPM’s. Instead they built a simple, logic free, fixed restriction that works in one RPM range. At low RPM and low fuel delivery rate there isn’t enough flow back pressure to make the AI fixed restriction work properly, so Mack lowered fuel delivery to lower exhaust ppm at low RPM. Low end torque disappeared. If Mack had designed a variable restriction exhaust they could have choked the flow at low RPM, created back pressure, cooled the burn and reduced NOx @ low RPM. They could have delivered more fuel on low end with a variable restriction and built torque.

Any fixed restriction has a pressure delta curve, IOW the more you try to force through a fixed restriction the higher the back pressure.

Low RPM, Low flow volume, low back pressure, higher NOx, reduced fuel delivery. No torque and horsepower.

High RPM, high exhaust flow, high back pressure, lower NOx, increased fuel delivery. Enough horsepower and torque but overconsumption of fuel due to inefficient, uncooled, EGR back flow. The stock granites get 4 MPG, so plenty of fuel is flowing out at working RPM range, but with a poor return.

With nothing else considered......you have a fuel system that delivers too little fuel at low RPM and too much at high RPM. The product of catering fuel delivery to match a fixed restriction rather than varying the restriction to cater to the needed fuel delivery.

Once modified.......Too much fuel is making lots of heat and lots of power when running more clean air and less scavenged EGR gas. Everybody notices the pyro operating range is elevated after the upgrades. Flow injectors fix the low RPM (low fuel) delivery issue. Flow injectors also increase an already high output of fuel at full governed RPM. That generates your higher torque/HP return, higher NOx and higher pyro. You can back off the accelerator now since your fuel is giving a power return and MPG increases. You can use the extra top end when needed as long as you manage the pyro.

Disclaimer....

With the current arrangement you have sufficient power and a manageable creep on the pyro. Some bump scavenging is likely still occurring (impossible to know how much) and lowering the combustion temp. If the residual scavenge is completely eliminated (by AC cam swap) with this set-up it’s possible to see a rise in pyro beyond the common, manageable, 900F. If little or no bump scavenging is occurring(with the original camshaft),  because of our restriction elimination, a bump-less AC cam wouldn’t add performance and could drive more pyro temp....with this set-up. There could be a combination of air and fuel that favors the AC camshaft plus manages heat, however I’m not convinced it would deliver more to the wheels. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posting this for an old timer who works with me.

He has an 04 vision that originally was an UPS truck with a single diff.it then got stretched and a Camelback suspension slapped under it with I believe 4.17 gears.

He wants to get rid of the truck because how low on power it is.he claims it's 310 hp truck .

I told him I would check with you guys and see what upgrades could be done to wake that bulldog up.since it was an over the road truck it's got an AC motor.

Truck sounds real nice and don't burn oil and it would be a shame to let it go when it may have potential.

Also told him he needed an overdrive transmission to get more top end since it's still got the direct transmission from when it was otr.

He doesn't want hot rod , just something to wake the dog up.he drove 40 years over the road in 425 cat and 13 speed  and wants something reliable he could earn some $

Please advice.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, R.E.D said:

Posting this for an old timer who works with me.

He has an 04 vision that originally was an UPS truck with a single diff.it then got stretched and a Camelback suspension slapped under it with I believe 4.17 gears.

He wants to get rid of the truck because how low on power it is.he claims it's 310 hp truck .

I told him I would check with you guys and see what upgrades could be done to wake that bulldog up.since it was an over the road truck it's got an AC motor.

Truck sounds real nice and don't burn oil and it would be a shame to let it go when it may have potential.

Also told him he needed an overdrive transmission to get more top end since it's still got the direct transmission from when it was otr.

He doesn't want hot rod , just something to wake the dog up.he drove 40 years over the road in 425 cat and 13 speed  and wants something reliable he could earn some $

Please advice.

 

 

PM Mackpro, he has the tune-up manual and can tell you what his top HP can be with those 310HP base engine component.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok great.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The AC 310/330 Maxi-cruise was a common engine in the single axles  Mack’s .  It puts out 1360 ft pounds of torque which is that a AC 350 has .  It shares the same injectors as the 330/350 and  355/380 engine, it also shares the same turbo as the 330/350. It could possibly be upgraded to a 330/350 with no hard parts changed if you could find a dealer willing to do it . 

Edited by Mackpro
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Considering that I’d flash it to 330/350 and install some K&S injectors to push out an extra 20-30HP? I haven’t priced a VGT lately, but guessing the cost of a upgrade turbo would make the next leap expensive.

Edited by Mack Technician

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok I'll let him know.thanks guys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Awesome information, thanks to all you experts for taking the time to share.  I’m getting ready to switch gears and buy my first dump truck. I took the advice of a buddy and decided on a low mileage 2004 CV713 with AI-400 12.0L MACK 400 HP and MAXITORQUE 9 SPDS trans. I’m going to be running mostly dirt sand and stone at ~70K in hot temps.  So my question is, should I avoid this engine?  I don’t mind spending some additional money and upgrading a manifold, injectors, and turbo, but the part numbers from Grand Rock don’t bring any results on their search page so I’m assuming that it was a one and done single run custom job?  The truck was a specialized oil field truck and has a new 17’ steel body, PTO and cylinder and looks clean in pictures. I’m flying out this Friday 9/27 to take a drive and check it out and if everything looks good I was going to hand the man a check and drive it home.  Any advice would be very welcome—

1. is this engine a dog without doing the conversions described in this thread?

2.  What exactly is the minimum I’d need to do to make it run properly?

The last 6 of the VIN 008206

The truck is listed here on MV Planet Trucks.

http://www.mvplanettrucks.com/admin/view2.php?ccode=156893884865881&startitem=&startpage=&endpage=&current=&category=&make=&model=&year=#

My cashiers check is in hand and I have a Friday flight, but for $60K if this engine is going to irritate me for the next 3 years I can hold off.  I have a little time to look for the right truck if this engine isn’t it..

 

As an aside, I could have gotten a 2016 Western Star for ~$80,000.00 locally.  It’s listed here but sold now.  

https://www.tlgtrucks.com/peterbilt-sleeper-day-cab/GPHP1610/

Please someone tell me that even though its newer that this old 2004 Granite is still a better truck, otherwise I’m going to be kicking myself —

Thanks—

Edited by The Burren

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, The Burren said:

Awesome information, thanks to all you experts for taking the time to share.  I’m getting ready to switch gears and buy my first dump truck. I took the advice of a buddy and decided on a low mileage 2004 CV713 with AI-400 12.0L MACK 400 HP and MAXITORQUE 9 SPDS trans. I’m going to be running mostly dirt sand and stone at ~70K in hot temps.  So my question is, should I avoid this engine?  I don’t mind spending some additional money and upgrading a manifold, injectors, and turbo, but the part numbers from Grand Rock don’t bring any results on their search page so I’m assuming that it was a one and done single run custom job?  The truck was a specialized oil field truck and has a new 17’ steel body, PTO and cylinder and looks clean in pictures. I’m flying out this Friday 9/27 to take a drive and check it out and if everything looks good I was going to hand the man a check and drive it home.  Any advice would be very welcome—

1. is this engine a dog without doing the conversions described in this thread?

2.  What exactly is the minimum I’d need to do to make it run properly?

The last 6 of the VIN 008206

The truck is listed here on MV Planet Trucks.

http://www.mvplanettrucks.com/admin/view2.php?ccode=156893884865881&startitem=&startpage=&endpage=&current=&category=&make=&model=&year=#

My cashiers check is in hand and I have a Friday flight, but for $60K if this engine is going to irritate me for the next 3 years I can hold off.  I have a little time to look for the right truck if this engine isn’t it..

 

As an aside, I could have gotten a 2016 Western Star for ~$80,000.00 locally.  It’s listed here but sold now.  

https://www.tlgtrucks.com/peterbilt-sleeper-day-cab/GPHP1610/

Please someone tell me that even though its newer that this old 2004 Granite is still a better truck, otherwise I’m going to be kicking myself —

Thanks—

Try calling Grand Rock directly. I’d try Josh Stewart. The listing may not show up (or search) because they don’t want to confuse people who are looking for a stock part and end up accidentally buying a modification fit. It’s a practical line of thought for them not to list something which isn’t a direct fit. 

Personally, I have complete confidence in these AI trucks because I worked on them for years. They are a lemon, so you need to know how to make lemonade. This is the lemonade recipe.  Can’t recommend these trucks for purchase except to say I’d buy one because I have my previous coworker at the dealership who can still drop files into them and provide all other internal support and I’m very familiar with them. The truck I used for this thread ran 600K+ miles with no mods or even a software update. It was making money and the fleet manager I talked to (before purchasing) was happy with it. You need to gauge your own risk and make your decision.

I’m an “end of life” user my whole life. Never owned a new car or warranty. If a car motor goes south I want a quick, easy, low-tech, turn around repair which I can perform with the tools I own. I still don’t run an overhead cam in the family van simply because I have to fix it. These AI qualify as good “end of life buyer” trucks, easy quick fixers if they go down during season. I can say from what i’ve witnessed personally and heard on this sight I would never want a end of life truck with a stacked emissions system that starts with 4 or 5(tier). 

IMO-That’s a nice looking rig. If they are a 15 year old, unprofitable, fuel guzzling, junk pile, why the heck are they still getting an arm and a leg for one?

Answer....

1. Yes, they have doggy spots in low power band, but will run.

2. The bare minimum is a set of injectors. Leave the rest alone. Lot of guys only changed injectors and were satisfied.

Edited by Mack Technician

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Hey Mack Technician— thank you for the quick response.

  Questions:

1.  When you wrote

Can’t recommend these trucks for purchase except to say I’d buy one because I have my previous coworker at the dealership who can still drop files into them and provide all other internal support and I’m very familiar with them

are you saying that the regular user (me) WON’T necessarily be able to get an updated flash file downloaded if my rig is running old software?  

2. I can’t find the post which lists the upgraded injector part numbers to buy.. Am I mis-remembering what I read?

Thanks for the recc. re. Josh Stewart.  I’ll give them a call Monday.  I’d love exact part numbers for the proper manifold turbo and injectors if you have them handy.  These parts (assuming they are a direct plug n play replacement) are something I would be able to install easily if it will make the truck that much better =

Thanks—

 

UPDATE— is the 631GC5153M4 SA400 WithOut wasteGate what I’m looking for for my AI400 motor?

Edited by The Burren

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 9:46 AM, The Burren said:

 

Hey Mack Technician— thank you for the quick response.

  Questions:

1.  When you wrote

Can’t recommend these trucks for purchase except to say I’d buy one because I have my previous coworker at the dealership who can still drop files into them and provide all other internal support and I’m very familiar with them

are you saying that the regular user (me) WON’T necessarily be able to get an updated flash file downloaded if my rig is running old software?  

2. I can’t find the post which lists the upgraded injector part numbers to buy.. Am I mis-remembering what I read?

Thanks for the recc. re. Josh Stewart.  I’ll give them a call Monday.  I’d love exact part numbers for the proper manifold turbo and injectors if you have them handy.  These parts (assuming they are a direct plug n play replacement) are something I would be able to install easily if it will make the truck that much better =

Thanks—

1. Gray engine amnesia is real and plaguing Mack dealerships across the USA. No guarantees your dealership has an experienced mechanic who will negotiate software changes well. Some guys have had to travel. Dealerships aren’t able to tie down the millennials and may not treat physically older mechanics as valuable. It’s case by case from what guys are expressing to me. When I was foreman in our shop I had a customer tell one of my older mechanics he should be greeting at Walmart. I’d love to have stuffed a fist in that guy’s pie hole, however the mechanic told him off before he said that...so? When folks are paying $120 an hour they want a young-middle age guy who can lift and swing hammers. Sometimes makes older, knowledgeable, guys under appreciated. 

 Talk to your dealership and make them liable via promise..... “Hey, if I buy this Mack and become a new customer what can you do for me? Can you change my horsepower and update software on Gray engines?”. If they say “yes”, ask to talk to the mechanic directly, verify it, and get that mechanics name. 

2. Fuel service may keep those injector upgrades as intellectual property. They have to play around with tip swapping to find a new fit for each horsepower bracket. let them do it, don’t try it yourself, let them be liable so if it’s wrong the replacements are free. If you crack a tip out in the field and need a tip replacement Mike (K&S) will tell your vendor what tips to use. Your vendor will have access to the replacement tips directly from Bosch. Mike vends them cheap, good OEM quality.

 

Edited by Mack Technician

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Mack Technician said:

1. Gray engine amnesia is real and plaguing Mack dealerships across the USA. No guarantees your dealership has an experienced mechanic who will negotiate software changes well. Some guys have had to travel. Dealerships aren’t able to tie down the millennials and may not treat physically older mechanics as valuable. It’s case by case from what guys are expressing to me. When I was foreman in our shop I had a customer tell one of my older mechanics he should be greeting at Walmart. I’d love to have stuffed a fist in that guy’s pie hole, however the mechanic told him off before he said that...so? When folks are paying $120 an hour they want a young punk. Makes older, knowledgeable, guys under appreciated. 

 Talk to your dealership and make them liable via promise..... “Hey, if I buy this Mack and become a new customer what can you do for me? Can you change my horsepower and update software on Gray engines?”. If they say “yes”, ask to talk to the mechanic directly, verify it, and get that mechanics name. 

2. Fuel service places keep those injector upgrades private. They have to play around with tip swapping to find a new fit for each horsepower bracket. let them do it, don’t try it yourself, let them be liable so if it’s wrong the replacements are free. If you crack a tip out in the field and need a tip replacement Mike (K&S) will tell your vendor what tips to use. Your vendor will have access to the replacement tips directly from Bosch. Mike vends them cheap, good OEM quality.

 

10-4.

Edited by The Burren

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/5/2019 at 5:07 PM, Mack Technician said:

Considering that I’d flash it to 330/350 and install some K&S injectors to push out an extra 20-30HP? I haven’t price a VGT lately, but guessing the cost of a upgrade turbo would make the next leap expensive.

Can someone attach a link for the K&S shop ? I’d like to talk to them but not sure of the location of the shop.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, 03' Big Red said:

Can someone attach a link for the K&S shop ? I’d like to talk to them but not sure of the location of the shop.

www.ksfuel.com

Mike Kosky

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, so ive been saving my nickles to do the 5 inch exhaust(my local truck pro can get them, has already quoted), exhaust manifold, K&S injectors and 400 turbo, but i just read something that concerns me, if my local dealer has the "Grey Motor Amnesia", does that mean that installing the parts wont help? Or just that it would run better if it had the dealer tune it after?

Just curious, if there was a way to convince the engine brain that the engine had boost, say 10 lbs or some low number like that, by fooling the boost sensor/manifold pressure sensor electronically, would that allow more fueling earlier? Maybe allow the actual boost to build quicker, minimizing the low end lag? Maybe a resistor or something in the circuit? Im not interested in rolling coal, just thinking aloud

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Bigjohn4300 said:

Ok, so ive been saving my nickles to do the 5 inch exhaust(my local truck pro can get them, has already quoted), exhaust manifold, K&S injectors and 400 turbo, but i just read something that concerns me, if my local dealer has the "Grey Motor Amnesia", does that mean that installing the parts wont help? Or just that it would run better if it had the dealer tune it after?

Just curious, if there was a way to convince the engine brain that the engine had boost, say 10 lbs or some low number like that, by fooling the boost sensor/manifold pressure sensor electronically, would that allow more fueling earlier? Maybe allow the actual boost to build quicker, minimizing the low end lag? Maybe a resistor or something in the circuit? Im not interested in rolling coal, just thinking aloud

Hey John, Can you list what your paying for the 5" exhaust? Has it gone up?

Dealership is needed to update software (if it even needs it), rest it hard parts. If you don't update software you still benefit from anything on here.

I shouldn't TMI as much as I do, it could make people paranoid to take stuff in to the dealer. Its the product of hearing people on here unable to get good support (and sometimes parts) on older equipment. Every dealer has a Mack engine repair manual and can read it. Base engine repair is available. You may even argue it’s the golden years for E7, E-Tech, ASET  because all product improvements are completed and everybody has hind sight concerning repair of chronic issues, all those battles have been fought. The amnesia factor is stuff like retrieving information and software for older rigs. Not every dealer is good at that. When you see what guys are saying on these threads it’s clear that not all dealerships are equally competent...…………………………. That being said.....here comes TMI (To much information)...... How many techs in your local dealership were trained, by a competent factory trainer, on the Gray engines? They don't sell those courses anymore. If you worked on E6 it had some appearances of E7. If you worked on E7 it had a lot in common with E-Tech. If you worked on E-tech it had even more in common with ASET. If you worked on ASET  then you opened the hood one day and the engine was a Red Volvo and the Gray engine factory classes were gone. Schools over boys, your world is red now. Then comes the next issue, the old guy in the shop knows they (dealership) need his Gray engine experience. He's not young, but he's knowledgeable…....so is he going to train his younger, stronger, able-bodied, low paid, less vacation time, replacement?????

If they still manufacture them.....you could install a tuner and do what your describing in the way of manipulating fuel delivery. Never played with fooling the ECM, doesn't mean you couldn't take a shot at it.  

Edited by Mack Technician

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes I can post the quoted prices, truck pro quoted them, they are higher that listed here, but I’ll pay to play, they said 2-3 week delivery after ordering

My granite has been updated to 12B, is that all I need to be ok with exhaust, manifold, turbo and injectors? Or do I need to try to get them to set it to a higher HP as well?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wondered how high they would go. Before mine got to the counter they had blown past their quote. They were decent enough to reduce it to the agreed price.

 

You will have to make that call since you know what you have and what your towing and where you are coming up short. That AI300 sits at 325HP from 1700 to 1950RPM and peaks torque at 1300-1400 RPM. The AI375 sits at 400HP from 1600 to 1900RPM and peaks torque at 1300-1600.

AI-300 and AI-375 share the same turbo, but not injectors.

 

Personally, I'd seek to have the HP file for an AI-375A installed and change to K&S injectors since you need a different set anyway. That's it. Not every situation calls for a complete revamp, Unless your pup trailer and back hoe are really putting you to the test why push that Allison Auto to the break point...……

Then....

Go the full recipe if it isn't doing what you need and hopefully drivetrain is in good shape and you light foot in the sand lots.

 

Edited by Mack Technician

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...