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the e 9 was feared out west on a up hill run, but was laughed at one you crested the summit, I feel the lack of an effective eng. brake also lead to lower sales #. cummins was the preferred eng of choice, followed by cat then Detroit. a lot of people loved the v-8 but got tired of hearing I need shoes and drums this week end.

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It seams Mack has always had financial issues.... Why was this when it was such an icon and found on every construction site in America. The B and R models seam to surpass all other makes when it came to build quality. Not to mention build numbers. Add to that the maxidyne performance you would think Mack would have been #1 and in the black for most of the 50's, 60's and into the 70's?

One again Great info kscarbel!

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the e 9 was feared out west on a up hill run, but was laughed at one you crested the summit, I feel the lack of an effective eng. brake also lead to lower sales #. cummins was the preferred eng of choice, followed by cat then Detroit. a lot of people loved the v-8 but got tired of hearing I need shoes and drums this week end.

that is true. The dynatard was pretty much worthless. Ive said beforea tuned e9 could keep up with our mp10's iI'm sure even a really tuned up one might even pass a stock mp10 but on the down hill watch out because that mp10 powerleash is 10 times better than that e9 dynatard
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It seams Mack has always had financial issues.... Why was this when it was such an icon and found on every construction site in America. The B and R models seam to surpass all other makes when it came to build quality. Not to mention build numbers. Add to that the maxidyne performance you would think Mack would have been #1 and in the black for most of the 50's, 60's and into the 70's?

One again Great info kscarbel!

I was unaware of how bad the problems were until reading this thread. I wonder if the root of the problem was the lack of "truck people" on the Board of Directors for so many years.

Jim

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I think that's an all around thing to say about a lot of companies and organizations. I love how our president is trying to manipulate the rules of trucking, yet if bet he never has been behind the wheel of a truck, let alone in real world situations.

But enough subject change, I think the logo is sorta funny, and mack in my eyes has taken a fall from grace since the older days,

especially before my time. I actually have to point out that when I was a kid, every truck was a Mack truck because when I was growing up they had a major foothold in the truck market with their dependable trucks.

But nowadays, as a diesel mechanic and fixing a fleet of 28 07+ cxn613 visions I see a lot lacking. Maybe it's just me loving the trucks from my era or maybe mack is just trying to hard with people who don't know what to do in the seat of a truck manufacturing company, either or, I will have to say I still love my Mack's.

:)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Please allow me to explain, in further detail, how we came to arrive at this point today.

I’m not for a moment going to tell you that the executives of America’s truckmakers were/are all angels (although Zenon C.R. Hansen was), but I will bluntly tell you the business culture today at most of Europe’s truckmakers is altogether different from the United States. The word ruthless doesn’t begin to describe it. Frankly, we Americans aren’t accustomed to the underhanded way they execute to get ahead, and it puts us at a business disadvantage.

That is why I say, complacency kills. We Americans are never ready to deal with the ruthlessness of foreign opponents but you adapt and overcome. All failures are do to failed leadership. Mack being bought out by Volvo is related to failed leadership. This is just my opinion.

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that is true. The dynatard was pretty much worthless. Ive said beforea tuned e9 could keep up with our mp10's iI'm sure even a really tuned up one might even pass a stock mp10 but on the down hill watch out because that mp10 powerleash is 10 times better than that e9 dynatard

Comparing the modern Volvo Engine Brake (rebadged as Mack “Powerleash”) to the Mack “Dynatard” engine brake is rather unfair.

I-VEB (Volvo Engine Brake with Intelligence) was introduced in 2006, while Mack “Dynatard” was designed long ago.

I have a close relationship with Jacobs. They are amazing people who engineer the world’s best engine brakes. It’s no wonder that Daimler hired Jacobs to design world-leading engine brake for the OM 471, OM472 and OM473 (DD13, DD15 and DD16) rather than design their own.

An EPA2010 Mack E9 would certainly include the latest Jacobs engine braking technology.

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I didn't mean CL I meant CH. No over the road big power. CL was a great workhorse. My only point was that Mack failed in the 90's under their own management and they can't blame Volvo for that.

While failed leadership can obviously lead to a company’s downfall, the case of Mack Trucks was different.

From 1992, Volvo had made a decision to acquire its fourth U.S. truckmaker – Mack Trucks. Engaging in ruthless and disreputable activities, Volvo acquired the allegiance of several Mack and Renault executives. Then working from the inside out, Volvo was able to take the ball down to their end of the court.

I find Mack’s board of directors guilty of not adequately vetting the integrity and principles of Marc Gustafson.

After wasting 11 months in 1989 under the helm of Ralph Reins, Renault became Mack’s majority stakeholder in 1990. The French truckmaker sent a brilliant warm-hearted man across the Atlantic to lead Mack in the form of Elios Pascual. You would almost have thought Zenon Hansen had returned, as Elios fired back up the Mack spirit that Zenon had pioneered.

Elios Pascual was no stranger to Mack. He had been Renault’s representative to Mack since 1978, and was part of the team that developed the Mid-Liner medium truck range from 1979.

When Renault assumed control, Mack employees were at first very concerned, needless to say, about what would transpire under Renault. But the outgoing Elios Pascual immediately reached out to Mack employees, helping them realize that Renault was dedicated to making Mack strong again. Pascual quickly earned the trust and respect of Mack’s employees, and revived the Mack team spirit originally inspired by the legendary Zenon C.R. Hansen. Altogether, Renault invested over US$300 million in Mack Trucks.

As acting Mack president from 1990 to 1995, Elios Pascual began a series of initiatives that resulted in impressive strides forward.

From 1993 thru 1999, Mack Trucks increased its heavy truck market share in the United States for seven consecutive years.

Mack sold 34,264 trucks in 1999, a 28 percent increase over 1998

The company's market share in 1999 reached 13.1 percent, up from 12.8 percent in 1998.

1999 U.S. market share

Freightliner 31.9%

Navistar International 15.9%.

Mack 13.1%

Kenworth 10.9%

Volvo 10.7%

Peterbilt 10.2%

Ford/Sterling 5.5%

Mack’s Canadian sales ticked down in 1999 to 2,858 units, as market share declined from 10 percent to 9.3 percent.

However Mack Australia’s 1999 sales rose 6 percent to 746 trucks, with a 12.1 percent market up from 11.7 percent in 1998.

Mack exports grew in 1999, with a 22.5 percent share in exported North American heavy trucks.

With Mack truck sales solid and growing throughout the 1990s, Volvo remained obsessed with acquiring Mack Trucks and buying up yet another American truckmaker’s market share (Autocar, GMC, White).

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KS I believe you are right about the unions at that time pushing management to the wall and not budging or comprimising. A lot of US companies were lost in the industrial north and midwest because of union tactics. I tend to think behind the scenes there was communist influence in the unions. Now they are trying to get a strangle hold on the public sector. Not a good trend for the rest of us.

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If the UAW of the 1980s had been willing to enter into a new era of cooperation and compromise with Mack, as the UAW of 2008-2010 had been forced to do during the Big 3’s financial crisis, Mack Trucks would be with us today. And, the replacement facility for Plant 5C would have been located in the Lehigh Valley rather than South Carolina.

So the UAW and Volvo are the reasons for today's Mack? Its good to see you point the finger at someone other than Volvo.

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I am going to stick my neck out as a fleet owner and mechanic to point out something I noticed in Canada that had to do with a huge loss in Mack market share up in the great white north.....

MACK ENGINES of the 90's and on.....

The original E7 did very well here and sales of CH and others climbed where fleets that would not normally look at Mack had to start to admit that E7 was a good motor.

Although there is no comparison to the E6 R-model days of market share there was a glimmer of hope in sales here as Mack was offering a fairly reliable unit that companies and owner operators could rely and profit from. The E9 has been beaten to death here in this thread, so onward......

I can remember between 1998-2000 and on where the E-Tech was rolled out, many Canadian customers were still buying and ordering under the reliability and reputation of the E7. The crossover to E-tech would see their brand new trucks go down within 100,000kms for camshafts, oil coolers etc. Some with multiple cams being installed. Even KS's stats for market gain runs with E7 production and shares fall 1.5 years after E-tech roll out. (Imagine that!)

Reliability went out the window and so did customer satisfaction up here. I was Lead hand tech at a company that has close ties to Mack Canada since the 60's and couldn't believe having to send 1 to 2 trucks a week back to the dealer for the squeak from Cam issues etc. We would order and trade in 25 Macks every year. I then moved on to Bison Transport in 2001 where we had over 800 Volvos (VE powered) with a mix of Kenworth and Freightliners to round out the fleet. To my excitement, Bison ordered 30 Mack Visions and I watched every one of them fall flat on there face in fuel economy, pulling power, and reliability.(Most needing Cam's in the first 2 years of operation) Those 30 Visions were all flogged off in the first 3 years of operation as the worst test order I've ever witnessed and Bison ever took delivery of. They still run Volvo with Volvo power today.

The ASET was another disappointment I would rather not get into.

Sure Volvo poured more into there own powertrain R and D in that time period. I would love to see what other engine designs that Mack engineers were working on that Volvo may have forced them to pass on during the transition.

Until I get to see these ideas or designs, I will be left with the factual crap that Mack put out for all those years since the E7. Basically add ons to the E-Tech block design that Mack unveiled years before Volvo.

I'm glad Volvo installed the D series engine design into the Mack chassis. MP has its issues but in economy, reliability and resale it already has surpassed my ex ASET and E-tech powered Mack's in every category except not being of a Mack design.

The ASET's I had almost lost me as a customer looking to run my fleet in the black.

But due to a degenerative Mack gene in my family, I stuck it out.

I'm still glad I did and proved to myself the rewards of being loyal to a product and people that has had a HUGE impact on my past and now my future.

Today with my Macks OLD and NEW, things are looking up and forward. Not down and backwards.........

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Comparing the modern Volvo Engine Brake (rebadged as Mack “Powerleash”) to the Mack “Dynatard” engine brake is rather unfair.

I-VEB (Volvo Engine Brake with Intelligence) was introduced in 2006, while Mack “Dynatard” was designed long ago.

I have a close relationship with Jacobs. They are amazing people who engineer the world’s best engine brakes. It’s no wonder that Daimler hired Jacobs to design world-leading engine brake for the OM 471, OM472 and OM473 (DD13, DD15 and DD16) rather than design their own.

An EPA2010 Mack E9 would certainly include the latest Jacobs engine braking technology.

I have a Western Star 4900 demo with a Detroit 16 liter 600 The Jacobs brake is great on this engine esp. When the thing pulls 80,000 like it was pullin the skin off a hot dog!! I love this engine but am opting for the DD 13 470 hp for weight reasons and will be ordering Freightliner Coronado's instead of the WS ,again weight. I think the Detroit Diesel is the best Engine on the market today and as far as the Jake Brake goes, ya just order them an forget about them cause they are trouble free, I just hope the DD 13 is as good as the 12.7 14' an 15 liter has been to us!

BULLHUSK

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I am going to stick my neck out as a fleet owner and mechanic to point out something I noticed in Canada that had to do with a huge loss in Mack market share up in the great white north.....

MACK ENGINES of the 90's and on.....

The original E7 did very well here and sales of CH and others climbed where fleets that would not normally look at Mack had to start to admit that E7 was a good motor.

Although there is no comparison to the E6 R-model days of market share there was a glimmer of hope in sales here as Mack was offering a fairly reliable unit that companies and owner operators could rely and profit from. The E9 has been beaten to death here in this thread, so onward......

I can remember between 1998-2000 and on where the E-Tech was rolled out, many Canadian customers were still buying and ordering under the reliability and reputation of the E7. The crossover to E-tech would see their brand new trucks go down within 100,000kms for camshafts, oil coolers etc. Some with multiple cams being installed. Even KS's stats for market gain runs with E7 production and shares fall 1.5 years after E-tech roll out. (Imagine that!)

Reliability went out the window and so did customer satisfaction up here. I was Lead hand tech at a company that has close ties to Mack Canada since the 60's and couldn't believe having to send 1 to 2 trucks a week back to the dealer for the squeak from Cam issues etc. We would order and trade in 25 Macks every year. I then moved on to Bison Transport in 2001 where we had over 800 Volvos (VE powered) with a mix of Kenworth and Freightliners to round out the fleet. To my excitement, Bison ordered 30 Mack Visions and I watched every one of them fall flat on there face in fuel economy, pulling power, and reliability.(Most needing Cam's in the first 2 years of operation) Those 30 Visions were all flogged off in the first 3 years of operation as the worst test order I've ever witnessed and Bison ever took delivery of. They still run Volvo with Volvo power today.

The ASET was another disappointment I would rather not get into.

Sure Volvo poured more into there own powertrain R and D in that time period. I would love to see what other engine designs that Mack engineers were working on that Volvo may have forced them to pass on during the transition.

Until I get to see these ideas or designs, I will be left with the factual crap that Mack put out for all those years since the E7. Basically add ons to the E-Tech block design that Mack unveiled years before Volvo.

I'm glad Volvo installed the D series engine design into the Mack chassis. MP has its issues but in economy, reliability and resale it already has surpassed my ex ASET and E-tech powered Mack's in every category except not being of a Mack design.

The ASET's I had almost lost me as a customer looking to run my fleet in the black.

But due to a degenerative Mack gene in my family, I stuck it out.

I'm still glad I did and proved to myself the rewards of being loyal to a product and people that has had a HUGE impact on my past and now my future.

Today with my Macks OLD and NEW, things are looking up and forward. Not down and backwards.........

Whenever I hear complaints about post-2000 Mack engines up to the point when Volvo began installing their own engines from 2006-2007, I have to put any and all responsibility (blame) on the owner of the Mack brand – Volvo Group.

From the moment Volvo acquired Mack in 2000, they became “the captain of the ship”. That’s the way business works.

Volvo had their hands into Mack from 1992 and knew the company’s product development pipeline. Through both aboveboard and underhanded due diligence, Volvo had an intimate understanding of the ASET engine product which it later launched into the market.

Thus, I feel that Volvo Group is wholly responsible for any shortcomings of the ASET engines launched by its Mack brand in 2002.

Let’s back up a moment and remind everyone what was happening in the run-up to EPA2004 (comparable to Euro-4), and how it actually took effect in October 2002.

In October 1998, a court settlement was reached between the EPA, Department of Justice, California Air Resources Board and engine manufacturers (Caterpillar, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, Volvo/Mack and Navistar) over the issue of high NOx emissions from heavy-duty diesel engines under certain driving conditions.

Since the early 1990’s, the manufacturers utilized engine control software that allowed engines to switch to a more fuel efficient, but higher NOx output, driving mode at highway cruising speeds. The EPA considered this engine control strategy an illegal “emissions defeating device”

The court settlement resulted in a consent decree that dictated:

1. Civil penalties for engine manufacturers and requirements to allocate funds for pollution research

2. Upgrading existing engines to lower NOx emissions

3. Supplemental Emission Test (steady-state) with a limit equal to the FTP standard and NTE limits of 1.25 × FTP (with the exception of Navistar)

4. Meeting the 2004 emission standards by October 2002, 15 months ahead of time

A positive note was that EPA2004 matched California emissions requirements, so that engine manufacturers no longer had to design and produce two standards of engines for the U.S. domestic market.

Volvo produced and sold two types of Mack ASET engines:

  • Mack ASET AC (application – highway) – Cooled (external) EGR
  • Mack ASET AI (application – vocational) – Internal EGR

EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) lowers nitrogen oxide emissions by cooling and reusing a measured portion of the exhaust gases.

Cooled (external) EGR has been a global standard technology since 2002.

Scania utilized single-stage water-cooled EGR combined with high pressure injection (Scania HPI) to meet Euro-4 (near EPA2004) emissions on both on-highway and vocational trucks (photo 1).

In meeting Euro-5 (near EPA2007), Scania combined extra-high pressure fuel injection (1800-2400 Bar Cummins-Scania XPI) with two-stage water-cooled EGR (photo 2).

For Euro-5 (near EPA2007), Scania has always offered customers a choice of EGR or SCR to meet the preferences of individuals and fleets (Give the customer what they want).

.

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post-16320-0-66637700-1395285970.jpg

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I see the ASET has been thrown under the bus here, (rightly so) but I seem to have missed any slagging of the E-Tech that was designed under the Mack/Renault partnership for the 1998 emissions regs. Assuming the E-Junk was under development for a few years before roll out........

Who's watch was that disappointing Mack product under? Those damn Renault Frenchmen this time......Tabernac!

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I see the ASET has been thrown under the bus here, (rightly so) but I seem to have missed any slagging of the E-Tech that was designed under the Mack/Renault partnership for the 1998 emissions regs. Assuming the E-Junk was under development for a few years before roll out........

Who's watch was that disappointing Mack product under? Those damn Renault Frenchmen this time......Tabernac!

dont try to get him to blame anyone but Volvo. It wont happen. Dont you know Volvo makes the worst engines compared to Detroit scania or even international maxx junk according to kscarbel . Even though the guys that run the mp like them for the most part they are actually bottom of the barel junk according to this man
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Also the engine brakes on the mp engines are just as good as a Jacobs. The low setting on our mp 10 powerleash is better by alot than the high setting on our etech Jake. You dont even need the high setting of powerleash only in extreme grades loaded to 50 plus ton

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I drove a 99 RD with one of the first eTECH 350'S and it was great until the Jake started actring up then started making noise and the dealer had no idea what to do with it. They changed everything on that motor poking and hoping. Took a long time for Mack to figure it out.

Rob

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